Calvanism. How do I tell if a Christian church is teaching Calvanism? and should I not attend it? What is the biggest problem with Calvanism?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Phabs on March 5, 2008 at 10:37pm

Hi Paige

I just saw your question.
Didn't mean to confuse you, I'm not quick to identify myself as a Calvinist for a couple of reasons. I believe he's a great theologian, from what I've read from him, but I simply don't know enough about him to identify myself with him nor do i agree with everything he believed. For example he believed in infant baptism , not for salvation but as a form of convenant, I don't believe in that, I believe in infant dedication and believer's baptism, very minor things. He has library upon library of work, many are free online if you want to check his work.

I'm a Calvinist as far as the Doctrine of Grace (the 5 TULIP points) so i guess yes...

Sorry for the long answer to a yes or no question

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Permalink Reply by Paige Robertson on March 7, 2008 at 1:56pm

Well thank you Phabs.
I appreciate you and your help. I really was confused and I was just concerned. I have been a christian for 5 years and just barely heard of calvanism last year or so. People were telling me how bad it was and how Calvin has lead people astray by twisting doctrin around. I just was shocked aboutall this . Im very saddened that people do this to one another. I was peaceful as a christian. Loving and accepting and walking in His love. then I started hearing all this "stuff" about this theolgian,that doctrine,this doctrine,dont go here,dont go there, dont think this,dont think that, and I just got soo sad and frustated. We are all the body of Christ. Lets all work together in unity like God called us to do. You know? Do you agree?

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Permalink Reply by Phabs on March 11, 2008 at 9:32am

I agree, I attend an officially non-Calvinist, or at least not a 5-pointer church, although a lot of us hold to Calvinist theology. so it does not bother me. Love trumps good theology any day.
Paige, I will not be quick to say that it's a bad thing that you are not peaceful as a Christian. Yes, we have the peace of Christ and that is a great thing, we can always rely on that, that peace has it's purpose, I don't think it applies here. If you've been troubled, sadden, frustrated to the point of asking questions and doing research, that is a great thing ;-), it sounds horrible, but I'm happy for you, sorry .

I read an author who said that he didn't know how to differentiate between the God of Calvinism and the devil.People say such thing about Calvinism because it offends their personal sense of what justice is, of what love is, of who GOD is.

really long story short, we should always be charitable to one another, but say we both read the same thing, and come to different opposing interpretation, then we both can't be right, either one of us is wrong, the other right or we're both wrong. The point is why do you believe what you believe? does the text teach it or is it your own supposition? If you're troubled about what you believe, as bad as i feel for saying it, I'm glad. My hope is that you don't stay troubled, that comes with a lot of prayer and a lot of study. right now my trouble is Galatians 3:19-20, I have no idea what Paul is saying :-(

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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on February 10, 2008 at 11:45pm

Pastor Art, I'll do my research, but i had read in one theological reference that Arminius and Calvin had a debate. Perhaps is was a disciple of Calvin who debated his friend Arminius.

I would think tho, that it's a tiny bit arrogant to call Luther a babe Christian. The man was not as versed as a person may become today. But, he did translate the entire Bible, from the original languages, into German. He did stand firm for the Gospel, against religious tyranny, to a degree we have rarely seen since.

His understanding of the condemnation of "Jews"in the NT was mis-interpreted (Jewish religious leaders who rejected and condemned Christ) , because he was reading the term into his common understanding of his day and was taking Vatican teachings about the Jewish people at face value without considering the whole of scripture. ie. a Jewish person is NOT the same as the "Jews" who Jesus condemned (for he himself was Jewish).

But, we owe so much to Luther's faith, that has been so rarely seen in believers today - really, "babe Christian"?

I also agree with Phabs: we can all find something to reject a belief system by, if we look far enough to someone who claimed to follow it. There were just as many from the Anglican church, in the days of slavery in America, who tried to justify their wretched system of slavery - without relying on Calvin.

Our call, for all of us, is to follow Jesus. Not a man-made system. The system may serve to understand the Bible and it may aid in our exploration. But, ultimately we must follow Christ and be accountable for that alone.

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Permalink Reply by CHRIS NOEL on March 10, 2008 at 5:37am

dear Micheal.
your letter on the holy spirit was very timely and bless god in the name of jesus for letter. lately i have had visions of praying in my sleep only to find out during day time that i was praying loudly and every body in the house was listening . i would like you to help me find someone to help me inter full time ministry i am black African living in Zambia and suffering from a chronic disease. may the peace of the lord be with you in the name of jesus christ of Nazareth.

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Permalink Reply by Pieter on February 10, 2008 at 6:03am

Well done Ron!

While I commend everyone in this discussion with their Christlike attitudes in handling their differences, I have to agree with you.

I have once heard it told, and tend to believe it, that God's election and man's free will runs parallel like the rails on a railroad track. It is one of the many paradoxes of the Christian faith. Arguing about these are bound to bring conflict and not answers.

Paige, you are on the right track. Simple faith will often get you much further than complex theologies. Let us focus on the Tree of Life and avoid the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is your relationship with Jesus that counts, first and foremost, not your theological expertise.

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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on February 10, 2008 at 11:26pm

A guideline that I have learned to use in matters of debate is the maxim attributed to Augustine:

IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY.

We ought always seek to understand Christ and the truth of God. We ought never do so with condemnation, which Jesus himself would reject.

As I said before, my position on the matter is that each position is correct in what it affirms and incorrect in what it denies. Each position attempts to use scripture to validate it's truth; therefore neither position can be true in denial of the other.

For instance, when we see the sovereignty of God - we must see it as he himself sees it: he asserts sovereignty in some matters (such as the final outcome of all things) and yet yields it in other matters, such as when Jesus says "he that COMES to me, I will in no wise cast out." which indicates that he abdicates the sovereignty of the heart.

To stand on one camp or the other, in my mind, is to look at the scriptures with a hand over one eye. I choose to see with both eyes open. Calvin chooses only to see God's point of view. Arminius chooses more to see man's point of view. There are two points in the matter, and the way I read Jesus, he sees both points of view. He is, after all, the Man in whom "dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily". You might try getting your mind around that, before deciding that all C's or A's are heretics. If God can unite the finite and the infinite into a single man, then matters of human salvation, election and calling are small concerns.

Why should we divide? We ought to do what Jesus says. Nothing more and nothing less.

- Scribe

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Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on February 16, 2008 at 1:57pm

I never thought about it as one with Gods perspective and the other from mans perspective. I refuse to be dogmatic about these issues now. Over the years I have never been able to embrace one or the other in all honesty because as Scribe has stated; To stand on one camp or the other, in my mind, is to look at the scriptures with a hand over one eye. We will put God into a box if we do that and could miss out on coming to know and understand God in the way He intends us to.

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Permalink Reply by Jayashree on March 5, 2008 at 9:09pm

hi Paige
I understood every word of what yousay. Because I am a Hindu , who became a catholic and then got saved. I am so upset by all the 'stuff' I hear about the various denominations and the abominations and the other things. It scares me and robs me of the joy that I felt as you described when I was first saved. Why don't we all just focus on loving the Lord and seeking to be holy ( big enough a job as it is) rather than examining every church and house of worship? It seems we have so little time for Him .
Jay

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Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on March 10, 2008 at 5:42am

Jayashree, I san see that the last thing you want to hear about is dealing with doctrinal stuff because of your back ground. But even in the New Testiment we see these kind of disputes, one time Paul rebuked Peter for falling back into jewish traditions concurning the Gentiles. The messages to the 7 churches in Revelation is another example how God speaks to problems that arose.
The Church is like a garden where sometimes the weeds have to be pulled so the garden can grow and be fruitful. We don't want to get into endless debates either which as you say can steal all out time For Him.

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Permalink Reply by Jayashree on March 10, 2008 at 7:54pm

Thanks Bob
I needed that word of affirmation. You are right that the weeds have to be pulled out. But who knows which is one and which isn't except the One? Can't we read the Word and , seek Him and edify one another only? And leave to teh Master of the garden to weed oout the tares? I know I am probably being simplistic and I recognise a lot of teh discussion comes froma real desire to help. But I wish you knew the way the precious few churches in India are battling one another and the way God's people are so jealous for their own denomination. what kind of testimony are we giving to my hindu brethern? How is the Lord of the divded to give the peace of his love through us to a people so deluded? My heart breaks for the love of them. My heart for our weakness and small vision. The field is white; we debate over the tools. Lord, have mercy on us.
Jayashree

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Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on March 11, 2008 at 5:07am

You are right when someone, or a group of people, or a church begin to act like or worse than unbelievers it is heart breaking. God said that if we are his children He will disipline us, and we see it all throught out history how God has done this. My pastor has been teaching lately from 1Cor. 13. If we are the people of God, then this scripture should be a good discription of how people should be relating one to another. I can tell it is out of your love for the Lord that you are so frustrated with all this turmiol among the people of God in India. You are not alone, here in the U.S. we deal with the same thing and it a bad reflection to a lost world in need of a savior. It has to start with each one of us becoming fully devoted followers of Christ and praying that other believers will follow our example.

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