WHY IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS A CALVANISTS????CALVANISM?? ENOUGH WITH THE "ISMS"

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David on December 19, 2009 at 2:40am

David V, thank you for your response,however, it appears that I won't be getting into a scholarly debate of issues with you, since it is apparent that you prefer to SHOUT your points rather than calmly discuss them.

Secondly, in future discussions with others it would be well if you'd refrain from asserting your own understandings of the Bible, and cite the points and authorities from which your derive your understanding. This is how scholarly arguments are made. Unfortunately, on this site, it is their stated policy to censure writers who post off-site references to support their arguments, citing a belief that they may tend toward "advertising".

At the risk of posting something that will get me removed from this website, I took all of 5 minutes to copy and paste the terms in the Bible which are commonly interpreted to refer to the "afterlife". The only source I went to was Wikipedia, but, it will suffice for now, as it agrees with other historical sources referring to the same topic.

Also David, you lose a fair amount of credibility when you post a comment without giving the other writer's comments any consideration, as you arrogantly believe that you are correct in your understanding and incapable of being wrong on this issue. Which even the slightest amount of research would prove to be the truth of the matter.

Finally David V, You assert that I must be a "Universalist", because of my beliefs. I am not. You have defamed me, and the One who sent me. Had you comprehended my earlier posts, I clearly stated that I believe in no denominations, at all. Denominations divide, and tear people apart to be made an easy prey for the adversary of God.

For your edification I post the following:

From Wikipedia: The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic *halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something".[3] The word has cognates in related Germanic languages such as Old Frisian helle, hille, Old Saxon hellja, Middle Dutch helle (modern Dutch hel), Old High German helle (Modern German Hölle), Norwegian and Swedish helvete (hel + Old Norse vitti, "punishment"), and Gothic halja[3]. Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary[3]

Did you catch the last line...Hell is a PAGAN concept, not Christian. You are confused.

Gehenna, gehinnam, or gehinnom (Hebrew: גהנום, גהנם, Greek γεεννα) are words used in Jewish and Christian writings for the place where evil people go in the afterlife (see Hell). The name is derived from a geographical site in Jerusalem known as the Valley of Hinnom, one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City. Initially the site where idolatrous Jews sacrificed their children to the god Molech (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6), the valley later became the common wasteyard for all the refuse of Jerusalem. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and rubbish, were cast and, according to legend, consumed by a constant fire. In time it became the image of the place of everlasting destruction in Jewish tradition[1]

It was the idolatrous jews who sacrificed their children in Gehenna. Your interpretations of Gehenna are derived from these same vain imaginations of fallen men. These would be the same misled people who denied that Jesus was the Christ, and accused Him of doing miracles by the power of Beelzebub.

Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ole"), in Hebrew שאול (Sh'ol), is the "grave", or "pit"[1]. Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.

You see David V....it is the simply the grave.

Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint). The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead.

In older Greek myths, the realm of Hades is the misty and gloomy[3] abode of the dead (also called Erebus), where all mortals go. Later Greek philosophy introduced the idea that all mortals are judged after death and are either rewarded or cursed. Very few mortals, including Heracles, could leave his realm once they entered

By the second century BC, Jews who accepted the Oral Torah had come to believe that those in sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus' story of Lazarus and Dives. At that time Jews who rejected the Oral Torah believed that Sheol meant simply the grave. Perhaps you too are an adherent to the Oral Tradition? That group of people were known as Pharisees.

English translations of the Hebrew scriptures have variously rendered the word sheol as "hell"[2] or "the grave".[3]

Got it?!?! Hell and the grave are not synonymous in your mind, but, they were in theirs.

I hope this helps David V. If you decide that you want to discuss issues with me in the future, please do a bit of homework first. It would certainly help to move things along, and not waste anyone's time.

Blessings to all in Christ Jesus,

David

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on December 24, 2009 at 3:00pm

David, you speak as though there was a universally understood concept of death and the afterlife before the first century. However, that is not at all the case. In fact there were many variant perceptions. The Pharisees correctly understood there was a resurrection, while the Sadducees denied any afterlife.

The fact is that the Old Testament gave an incomplete picture of death and the afterlife - however judgment and resurrection were implied. What was well understood by the vast majority in the Jewish community was that Messiah would bring revelation and understanding. This is why the Samaritan woman said this to Jesus at the well "when Messiah comes, he will teach us all things".

It is Jesus and the Apostles who have brought us greater understanding about this topic and it is David V who is correct in pointing that out to you.

You continue to hold this notion that the Gospel is merely a political manifesto, which is utter nonsense. To hold such a belief, you would have to see Jesus and the Apostles as utter failures. You would also have to see the founding fathers as failures by that same measure.

The reason that governments fear Christianity is simply because the mind of the unbeliever is blinded; what governments cannot control, they fear.

To deconstruct your ideas, a person would have to conclude that Christ's purpose was to establish an earthly government in the church - which failed to happen at any time since his resurrection. What is sad is that each time Christianity has gone toward founding or controlling earthly governments, they eventually become just as corrupt as the pagan government before them. This is apparently not something that God is interested in doing, since he has not empowered the church to do it.

Your thoughts sound pretty much in line with the movement of the zealots of the first Century. It's interesting, because Jesus called a couple of zealots to follow him. One betrayed him and the other is the one guy has has the least recorded accomplishments for the cause of the Gospel.

When God called me, he mentioned nothing to me about earthly Kingdoms or political movements. Instead, what he called me to do was trust him, follow him and grow in grace and the wisdom of the word of God.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on December 19, 2009 at 12:09am

David,

please explain to me what all the scriptures below mean? "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement" is that what the scriptures below are talking about?



Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on December 19, 2009 at 12:05am

Great imput bro Jonathan. Right on for taking the time to love the body in a peaceful manner.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on December 18, 2009 at 7:28pm

Great question Jayne,

Wow! Lots of info has been posted and I have not read all of it, so I run the risk of redundancy, but I will do my best to be brief.

There are two main theological schools of thought 1.Reformed theology AKA Calvinism 2. Arminianism

Both schools have been name after the people that invested a great deal of effort into forming and propagating their theological system of believe.

Both of these theological schools have a lot more in common than differences.

Does it matter to God which denomination, doctrinal beliefs we subscribe to? YES - TOTALLY.

IDENTIFYING OURSELVES AS ONE OR THE OTHER MAKES IT EASY FOR FOLKS TO KNOW WHAT DOCTRINAL STANCE YOU TAKE ON DIFFERENT BIBLE TOPICS.

There are major differences among the two and there are other theological systems/schools of thought as well.

We are living in an age when people change churches because of superficial reasons and not so much doctrinal ones.
I dare say that the vast majority of Christians today have no idea what confession of faith their home church holds.
It should not be so.

There is so much to talk about in a question such as the one you posted and I thank God for brothers like Jonathan down below taking the time/investing in an irenic manner to discuss and clear up some misconceptions.

WHAT WE BELIEVE ABOUT GOD IS EXTREMLY IMPORTAN. IS EVERYTHING - SO WE NEED TO TAKE HEED WE ARE FIRMLY GROUNDED ON THE TRUTH.

I will leave it at that for now - Great question.

ABOVE ALL ELSE - LET’S LOVE ONE ANOTHER!

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on December 19, 2009 at 1:48pm

right on Charles.

Permalink Reply by David on December 19, 2009 at 2:55pm

Well said, Charles.

Permalink Reply by David on December 19, 2009 at 5:51pm

I think you've got a great grasp on that doctrine Pamela. And, let's not forget that, it seems incomprehensible that God would be Glorified in any way by having ONLY the "elect" call upon Him. Gee, if He made these special people to call upon Him one day, and they did, how great is that? In the alternative, what if someone was a complete sinner, and they found out about the Good News of Jesus Christ and decided to turn their life around, and seek after the Kingdom of God, and to love their neighbor as themselves...wouldn't God be Glorified all the more? A lost sinner seeking God, and loving God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength!!!! This is certainly the Glory of God. All thanks and praise to the God of our Salvation!

Blessings,
David

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 19, 2009 at 3:50pm

David G.,

You are very good at letting everyone know what you stand against and do little to tell people what you stand for. The tid-bits you do share are not enough information to address your beliefs. Before I defend the faith that you so readily attack I want to know where you stand or is your whole argument and debate skills based on attacking the beliefs of others.

To you, Who is Jesus?
Do you believe that the Bible is God's inspired word?
Do you believe in a bodily resurrection and do you believe that Jesus rose int he resurrected body?
To you, what is salvation and how does one receive the salvation?

You also smack of arroggance and try and talk down to people. Your comment about hell is laughable. You believe you have proven your point and you are right and everyone else is wrong. You bring nothing new to the table that has not been discussed untold times and dismissed again and again as error over the years.

Waiting to hear what you believe for a change,
LT

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on December 19, 2009 at 4:05pm

LT -

I love your approach and will jump on your wagon. I praise the Lord for you. Rock on....

Be blessed and a blessing

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 21, 2009 at 1:29pm

Paula,

David G. changed his ID name from David Wm Gall to simply David as listed below (and numerous other places in this forum). He is the one that states "LT: let's get back to the basics, eh?". As to the who doesn't agree with who and why I will let the forum's speak for themselves and not give a onesided comment.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on December 21, 2009 at 3:38pm

Paula,

The sound doctrine that LT is sharing is not the same as the distorted one David G. has presented. You would have to read all the previous posts to follow that discussion.

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