The Sabbath

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ellen on December 7, 2009 at 6:59am

LT,

Clearly we will not come to an agreement on the value of the Torah and that's ok. We are in agreement that Christ is Messiah and that makes us brother and sister. That is primary.

I think your use of the word "Law" is where we begin to differ. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law as a means to remove sin, no doubt. But, there is more to the Torah than just the Law.

Clearly we can worship God any day and should be in constant fellowship all day every day. I would just maintain to you there is tremendous blessing in the Hebrew traditions that the church has not begun to experience until recently.
As to your question, for the very reason we are in disagreement, Messianic believers are leaving the Evangelical churches, because there is just too much of a difference in how we understand worship. That is not a movement back to the Law, but a conviction of how Jesus and His followers including Paul and Peter worshiped. They all worshiped in a synagogue on Sabbath and kept the Holy days, because God said to " keep my Sabbaths for all generations" not, until Jesus comes.

The NT translators changed much of the language from the original that described the Hebrew traditions which is where confusion has come in. They used Roman and Greek terms, innocently which is why you think the way we should observe changed. Keeping the Hebrew traditions is not keeping the Law for salvation, but for a greater blessing.

Just as a believer has difficulty explaining why their faith is so important to a lost person, yet they know what they have experienced is real,powerful, and life changing. Those who have come into a deeper understanding of the Hebrew traditions and the Torah know there is a deeper level of their faith.
I can only speak to my personal experience.
As someone who has followed Christ since I was 13, taught in the Word, filed with the Spirit, and served Him with a whole heart for 30 years. I have had the greatest experiences of His presence and power, freedom from generation curses, since I to returned to the Hebrew roots of the faith.

It is not a dangerous thing, it is powerful, which is why the enemy would love the church to stay away from it.

I don't expect to have persuaded you, but I know what is real and powerful to many, many believers. Having said that, I love all of the body of Christ where ever they are in their journey. But I can assure you, I am not in bondage, I am freer and have greater joy than I have ever had in my walk with the Lord.

Ellen

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on December 10, 2009 at 10:42pm

Hi Ellen, thanks for sharing your experience with Messianic community. I have a lot of respect for their movement and the interest it has brought to learning the whole of the Bible.

I do need to take exception to something you have written, which is a common misconception:
'1 John 5:2,3 says, " For the love of God is this, that we keep His commandments and are mindful of His teachings" At the time that John wrote that he was referring to the Torah, there was no NT'

I'd like to deconstruct that statement, which is based on a false premise.
1. John wrote his letter well after the first 3 Gospels were written and well established. The Apostles had spent more than 40 years teaching the Gospel across the known world, by the time he wrote that, and he was himself completing his magnum opus - the incredible Gospel of John. He wrote that after Paul and Peter were already martyred.
2. If you look at the sentence, the "he" of the subject is Jesus Christ. While theologians have accurately made the correlation of Jesus as the son of God and John himself reveals that Jesus is "the word of God" incarnate - you cannot mis the meaning; e.g. John is referring to the commands of Jesus.
3. If you study the Gospels, you will see that Jesus contrasts his commands against Moses and the Torah. He establishes his authority to do so by the prophets and by Moses himself. He also establishes that he gives "new commandments" and that he has initiated a "new covenant".

To miss these facts is to miss the Gospel.

Yes, there is immense value in learning the Torah and Tenacht, but the value in doing that is that they lay the foundation and the authority of Jesus as the only person who can be the Christ/Messiach; therefore ONLY Jesus/Yeshua has the authority to establish a new covenant and a new "law".

This is absolutely essential to recognize. It is because the Scribes and Pharisees knew He had demonstrated that authority that He held them accountable for deliberately attempting to thwart his ministry.

They knew he had come with the authority to change the Covenant, change the Law and replace the Temple. These three were what gave them their "significance" and they were unwilling to "allow" that to happen. This is the substance of the argument/conflict that Jesus had with the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees.

LT is 100% correct that we are not held to account for keeping Torah. We are under a new covenant and a new law. We are to learn it, but we are not to try to keep it.

It is a foolish thing when someone attempts to "keep the Law". The Gospel is clear that if we attempt to be "under law" we are held accountable to keep the "whole law". That would include sacrifices; which you know that cannot be kept.

It is vital to recognize that we are unable to keep the Law because God sovereignly ensured we cannot be tearing the temple completely down to the foundations. To say we can keep the law, without keeping the sacrificial system is to say we can modify the law - which Moses was unequivocal about! We cannot modify it whatsoever without invoking the wrath of God.

Only Christ could fulfill it and then make it obsolete by his own sacrifice.

To learn Torah is to understand that it is non-negotiable in it's terms. Yahweh gave a "take it or leave it" covenant from Moses. In the Exodus, the nation collectively agreed to "take it". You cannot say "well we don't keep those parts anymore, but we keep these parts - and that's okay". For nearly 2,000 year, God has taken away the ability to keep Torah. He did so, because he gave us a new Covenant.

Instead of trying to make a hybrid of the two, we ought to learn what Jesus Commanded. We ought to major on the commands of the Savior, the one who has given us an eternal covenant, not the temporal one.

Yes, it's a whole book - in two parts. But, we have to keep the facts straight and recognize which part has the ultimate weight and authority.

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Permalink Reply by Ellen on December 11, 2009 at 7:54am

Hi,

I know we cannot, nor do we have to keep the whole Torah. What is hard to convey to a church so steeped in Greek/Roman error from NT translation and history is that, while Jesus absolutely fulfilled the law, it is in no way obsolete. The old covenant is as far as sacrifices ,But there is SO much more to the Torah than the old covenant.
Jesus himself said "not one jot or tittle of the Torah would pass away, heaven and earth earth would pass away but the Torah would not" that doesn't sound obsolete to me.

Most christians, myself included had/have been wrongly taught that the NT has ALL the answers and the Torah is irrelevant.

I'm merely telling you the church has been mistaught for centuries. The Torah is just as alive, prophetic, and indeed every Hebrew letter filled with amazing mysteries and depth of God's very essence. Most christians miss that because they are stuck in NT theology.

We need to realize there was tremendous mistranslations in Jesus' and the disciples words as to the Torah by 3rd century scribes. They changed the Hebrew text/meaning to read more Greek/Roman which influenced how we interpret the NT today.

I realize it takes the Holy Spirit to open one's eyes to the deeper understanding to the Torah. But as someone ensconced in NT theology error for years, I have had greater experiences of God's presence, power, wisdom and depth as I have embraced the same Truth the disciples lived and Jesus taught. the Hebrew roots of the faith.

God is bringing His people back to an accurate understanding of His Word. There is nothing but blessing in the Torah for the redeemed body of Christ. But like anything else where there is truth, and power, the enemy will fight it.
My words probably don't persuade you. They may even irritate. I humbly ask you to seek the Lord of all truth and study the Messianic Rabbis for yourself before you reject the notion that the NT church as it has been has all the answers. For 30 years I thought that too. But, I am so grateful to God for opening my eyes and heart to deeper truth in Him through the Torah.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 6, 2009 at 2:23pm

Along with what Scribe has said on this topic I would also point out that very few of us are Jews/Hebrews, but rather Gentiles who have come to faith in Christ. In the first ccentury there were many Gentiles coming to faith and a disagreement arose about whether the Gentile believers needed to be circumcised. The leaders of the church listened to Peter, Paul and Barnabas tell about the Gentile (not Jew) conversions. Following their report James spoke up and addressed the group. This would have been the perfect time to reveal to the Gentiles their need to keep the Sabbath, Feasts, etc, if they were still required of the Christians (Gentile believers). They gave no such edict, but instead listed four things that they felt were necessary for the new Christians to do or follow. Take special note that the group prayed about it and responded that it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us, thus acknowledging God's invovlement in this decision and that is not merely a decesion of man.

What are these four things? 1) Abstain from food sacrificed to idols. 2) Abstain from blood. 3) Abstain from the meat of strangled animals. 4) Abstain from sexual immorality. Note that circumcision, Sabbath, and the 600 other laws/precepts were not included. These were fulfilled in Christ (Matthew 5:17). (For a full account of this council meeting in Jerusalem read Acts 15).

Are we to keep the moral law and do what is right? The principles are still their, the judgment and rigidity have been removed by Jesus (Romans 8:1) as He proclaims that if we are set free by the Son we are free indeed (Read John 8:31-59). Paul goes to lengths to clarify all this regarding the Law in the Book of Galatians. You cannot operate under grace and stress the law at the same time. Some may choose bondage to the Law, I choose freedom in Christ my Savior that brings a relationship with the living God.

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Ellen on December 11, 2009 at 9:55am

Thank you. The goal is truly a unified, powerful Body of Light, Truth, fruitfulness, and Love in a resserected Messiah and King.
As simply as I can say it. Worship whatever day you wish, but know Sunday was a pagan worship day to pagan Son Gods. Which is why Jews and messianic Jews stay true to the Sabbath God ordained. Will you be condemed for Sunday worship, NO.Do you forfeit blessings of great joy and God's presence when you ignore God's Sabbath? I have found it to be so. There is something very special about lighting Shabbot candles on Friday night, and entering into a sanctified, set apart period of timelessness, teaching, and worship with family and friends as God ordained from Gen 2.

The feast days are prophetic and have everything to do with Christ's return.
I humbly urge anyone engaged in this discussion to seek the Lord for yourself as to this move of God in end time events to bring true unity to the whole body by restoring the lost tribes of Israel (us gentiles) including a return to Torah as Jesus observed it, not just completing the sacrifice for atonement.

If I have irritated or angered anyone, I ask forgiveness, but if I have "stirred you up by way of rememberence" then seek the Lord and study for yourself. There are great resources out there.

I can assure you anyone seeking with a prayerful humble heart will find there are great nuggets of ancient wisdom, mystery and God's glory hidden in the Torah. Much of the church is awakening to this and rejoicing.


If that doesn't interest you then keep seeking the Lord as you are led. His promise is to purify His Bride in "the washing of the water of the Word" He will perfect, and complete us no matter what. To that end I trust we all agree.

Shalom

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on January 2, 2010 at 6:06pm

Dear Winston,

I will not write this as a case of taking sides between what you have stated and/or what sister Paula has shared.

i will only bring to our attention that you stated the following:"we all are human and do as we feel God would have us to do." This my dear brother has been the unfortunate issue the church has been confronting through the ages, a people that do what they feel God would have them do.

We should not be led by feelings at all when it comes to matters of doctrine but instead we should show are selves approve by rightly dividing the word of God. We should study the bible and in devour to come to the unity of the knowledge in Christ as is stated in Ephesians chapter 4.

With love beloved - David

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on January 3, 2010 at 10:15pm

Winston,

I am glad to hear you say that we do not need the right feelings before we are led by God.

A word of wisdom beloved, we must exercise compassion and patience among each other and realize that we are all free to express ourselves without the fear of being lashed at. If we do not agree with someone’s topic/reflection/comment etc, we can comment back in love. Fighting fire with fire is not one of the weapons of our warfare unless we are dealing with heresy. Paula is a beautiful sister who has her own opinions, you are a Godly and articulate man of God as well who is also free to express himself, but may we all (especially when offended) exercise long suffering among each other.

Maybe we should not respond to anything that upsets us until we prayed and slept on it. Zeal for the truth is beautiful when it’s dressed with wisdom.

One last thing Chuck Colson and Billy are beautiful men of God that love God and one must research their statements in context. We have seen these men do great things for the kingdom and so has the nation, so if anything beloved we should take the time to research the article if time allows and come back with much love and give an explanation of their views whenever possible, but if in the research we find that the article in fact had some truth to it, then we continue to love these men but heed the warning given. I have not done such research about the implication the article makes of these men, so at this time I cannot comment about that.

With love, your bro Dave

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on January 2, 2010 at 5:51pm

Ellen,

Like Alen has stated I don’t really see any distortion on what you are communicating in all that you have shared with us, I believe I understand what you are communicating and in view that the O.T. was a shadow of what was to come and was revealed through Christ and the apostles I do see a blessing in understanding the Torah and numerous laws there in. We can only be enriched by a deeper understanding of it and its symbolism etc.

However I would like you to considered the article/argument of today’s church for gathering on Sundays instead of Saturdays. I like you do not divide over such issues but we are after practicing traditions and doctrines backed by the word.

http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/f/sundayworshi...
Some Christians believe the early church began meeting on Sundays soon after Christ rose from the dead, in honor of the Lord's resurrection, which took place on a Sunday, or the first day of the week. This verse has Paul instructing the churches to meet together on the first day of the week (Sunday) to give offerings:

1 Corinthians 16:1-2
Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
(NIV)
And when Paul met with believers in Troas to worship and celebrate communion, they gathered on the first day of the week:
Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
(NIV)

While some believe the transition from Saturday to Sunday worship began right after the resurrection, others see the change as a gradual progression over the course of history.
Today, many Christian traditions believe Sunday is the Christian Sabbath day. They base this concept on verses like Mark 2:27-28 and Luke 6:5 where Jesus says he is "Lord even of the Sabbath," implying that he has the power to change the Sabbath to a different day. Christian groups that adhere to a Sunday Sabbath feel that the Lord's command was not specifically for the seventh day, but rather, one day out of the seven week days. By changing the Sabbath to Sunday (what many refer to as "the Lord's Day"), or the day the Lord resurrected, they feel it symbolically represents the acceptance of Christ as Messiah, and his broadening blessing and redemption from the Jews to the entire world.

Other traditions, such as Seventh-day Adventists, still observe a Saturday Sabbath. Since honoring the Sabbath was part of the original Ten Commandments given by God, they believe it is a permanent, binding command that should not be changed.

Interestingly, Acts 2:46 tells us that from the start, the church in Jerusalem met every day in the temple courts and gathered to break bread together in private homes.

So, perhaps a better question might be, are Christians under obligation to observe a designated Sabbath day? I believe we get a clear answer to this question in the New Testament. Let's look at what the Bible says

These verses in Romans 14 suggest that there is personal freedom regarding the observance of holy days. http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/f/sundayworshi...

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Permalink Reply by Simon Jonah Thomas on December 7, 2009 at 2:19am

Just a few thoughts.

Do you honestly believe that the Lord has to make note of on what day we worship Him in order to know who is children really are? There is a theological term (omniscience) which denotes that the Lord knows all things at all times.

You might want to also read Romans 14: especially verses 1 through 6.

There have been disputations since the days of Peter and Paul about issues such as how and when to worship the Lord.

Rather than condemning or praising any individual for what they eat or when they worship the Lord, the real problem within the world is that we far too often reflect it's values regardless of the day.

Saturday is the sabbath too be sure and Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (See Matthew 12: 1 through 8)

The relevance of the day comes from within the heart and I have come to believe that every Christian ought to live each day as a day of worship and service to the Lord regardless of our occupation or station in life. In so doing, our focus is always upon being available to the Lord too accomplish His will each and every day!

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Permalink Reply by Ellen on December 7, 2009 at 7:37am

Agreed

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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on December 12, 2009 at 11:30am

Alan, I appreciate your point of pursuing a walk with God by following Christ. To that, I heartily agree.

To the point of arguments being immature: it depends on what you mean by "argument". If you mean the true definition of the term argument, which is "to make a case, by points and authorities" then I would have to say that is incorrect. If you mean the more common concept of an argument, which is "to have a hostile disagreement" then you would be right.

Making a case for something and then listening to the counter points of your opponents case is how we come to understanding; especially when it is done with honor. In the discussion with Ellen, there has been much discussion. She has made a good case. I disagree with some of her points, yet I heartily agree with others.

Paula has eloquently made a point above, which is that the holy scripture is "one word of God".

Now, many folks, which has been revealed by some posters here, are adamant that you and I are sinning by worshipping on Sunday - that we are deceived by pagans. These Sabbatarians claim that there is no Biblical evidence or authority for worshipping on Sunday. I have proven them wrong by scripture. None of them have answered my points with scripture that proves me wrong. Yet, they continue to adamantly pursuade people that to be a true follower of God, one must "keep the sabbath".

Denise, who began this thread, is convinced that you are not a true child of God if you fail to worship on Saturday. Several of us have given her ample evidence to prove that theory wrong - by scripture.

Now, it doesn't bother me if someone wants to keep the Saturday Sabbath - except that I am convinced they have been drawn into a legalistic belief system. However, most of those folks are adamant that people who keep "the Lord's day" as a holy memorial of the Resurrection are sinning and could lose their salvation. That false claim must be answered with truth, because it can cause a person to doubt their faith and become drawn into a legalism that pulls them away from the simplicity of the Gospel. I have seen this happen.

In Ellen's case, she is articulate and passionate for following messianic traditions. There are some great benefits to learning the Old Covenant and how it leads us to Christ; there are many ways that it speaks of the character of God and the mysteries of the incarnation of Christ. It is also very helpful to understanding God's sovereign hand guiding history to a specific conclusion. Most confusion about these things comes from not being a student of the Torah and the Prophets.

However, being drawn into keeping the Old Covenant is a waste of time and a distraction from the Gospel and the commands of Christ. There is a difference between learning it and keeping it. You have made a case that we ought to become perfect as our Father is perfect. This is true. However, it is NEVER possible by the Old Covenant. As Jesus said "he that has the Son, has the Father; he that has not the Son, neither has the Father."
Only by the Gospel can we pursue a perfect relationship with the Father. If we do not understand that there is a pure simplicity to the Gospel - of being IN CHRIST - who is the author and perfecter of our salvation, then we are misguided.

For my part, I will continue to pursue making the case (arguing my case if you will) that Jesus is our "all in all" and that we must not be drawn back to the Old Covenant system. We must learn it, but not be under it. This is the clear message of two of the greatest books of the New Testament (Galatians and Hebrews).

Blessings to you and to all who seek Christ.

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Permalink Reply by OnlybyGrace on December 15, 2009 at 10:43pm

VERY WELL PUT! AMEN

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