All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Origin of Satan
A friend of mine is a great student of the Bible. He tells me many things he has learned in his Bible study time. I have invited him here. Hope he comes soon.
His main topic is the origin of satan. Before he gets here I want to hear from y'all. Did satan fall or was he made as he is from the beginning?
His main topic is the origin of satan. Before he gets here I want to hear from y'all. Did satan fall or was he made as he is from the beginning?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Jacob: Lucifer cannot be Adam. When was Adam thrown from Heaven? That is not written anywhere that I have ever seen in the Bible. In fact, the Pharisees tried to stone Jesus when He claimed to have come from Heaven, because that is blasphemy - unless you are God incarnate (As Jesus is the "only begotten son of God" he alone qualifies).
Adam was created in the Garden of Eden, which has always been a reference to a specific place on Earth. There is no place in scripture that associates Eden as being anywhere but a place on Earth.
The name Lucifer is referenced once in the Bible, but has always been associated as the annointed Cherub who fell and was later called Satan. Long before Jesus arrived, this was an established doctrine of ancient Biblical Judaism and Jesus himself never challenged it.
What value do you find in making a broad doctrinal revision, when the Lord Jesus himself never did so? Where do you get this? It's the nature of cults to take a single verse and recreate doctrinal positions based on a new interpretation of a single word. Do you want to join that company?
There are plenty of verses that tell us plainly and clearly that "Adam sinned" and that God covered his new-found "nakedness" (spiritual, emotional and physical) with an animal sacrifice - a metaphor of redemption that is extensively taught in the New Testament. There is none that align Adam to be Lucifer anywhere in the Bible. None. Not a single verse.
There are, however, ample places where the person of Satan is referenced with other many other names - as being both the inhabitor of wicked men and as the inspiration of evil. Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, and Jesus tells us that He was there when "Satan [was] thrown from heaven like lightening". I know of no other person whom the Bible references as being cast out of heaven by God.
You have to understand that in Hebrew literature and cultural thought, a name is not a single moniker like we use it today. But rather names were tools of describing a person’s character, mission and calling. So, Jesus was “the Nazarene” and “Messiach” and “the suffering servant” and “the son of man”, etc. Therefore, “the accuser” and “the enemy of God” and “the serpent” and the “shining one” are all descriptive names for the one we call “Satan”. He inspired and inhabited the King of Tyre and he inspired and inhabited Judas Iscariot.
You are making gigantic leaps of logic that cannot be supported by the scriptures. You aren't just challenging some local street preacher with that claim - you are assaulting the entire history of Christian theologians, and many generations of Hebrew scholars before them. I suggest that you reconsider that, and definitely be much more sure of yourself before you claim "That is a false teaching, a HUGE error." of something that has been an established doctrine for nearly 3,000 years. [That's a pretty prideful statement - which would require a mountain of empirical data].
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Jacob, you still have not answered the main problems with your theory. All of your conclusions are based on a premise filled with logical fallacies.
1. Lucifer had "fallen from Heaven" (Isaiah 14:12-14); Adam/Man is not from Heaven, but rather was created in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3). [therefore Lucifer cannot be Adam]
2. 3,000 years of Judeo Christian theology equates Lucifer with Satan and Jesus himself never challenged that perspective. Jesus said "I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven"; Lucifer is the only other character referenced in scripture who has "fallen from Heaven". No other character is referenced to have "fallen from Heaven".
3. Satan has other names and titles as well, which you aren't even mentioning. Are they all Adam also, or only Lucifer? You will also find that Satan has titles referencing that he has many attributes which are not only "spirit". Revelation 12 gives us another view on the Devil who is also called Satan.
The fact that you don't personally understand the nature of a creature who is a higher order of being, which you have never met, does not mean that the doctrine is wrong. It means you don't understand it. Yes, there are places where angels are referred to as spirits and places where they are described with physical attributes similar to man. In fact, the Bible is clear that man is "a little lower than the angels". Did you know that the Bible also references that man has "a spirit"? Is that a contradiction? No. It is describing an attribute of humanity that few understand.
Yes, some of Lucifer's attributes "sound" like mankind. We have received a corrupted nature from yielding to his Lordship. But, that does not make Adam the same person as Lucifer. It's a logical fallacy. For one thing, in your statements above, you confuse Adam with Eve.
Finally, you are diverting attention from your logical fallacy by focusing on me:
1. I chose Scribe D'Nucov as my handle because I hope to apply the same rigor to my faith, under the New Covenant, as the 1st Century Scribes did to the Old. For one, the Scribes were meticulous men of rigor concerning copying and teaching scripture. Yes, they missed the Messiah at first, but many believed later; and you will see when you study it that Jesus didn't correct them for every belief - but for mis-applying what they knew. There have been scribes of the church who exercised the same rigor of translating and copying manuscripts and they were vital in preserving and spreading the scriptures until the invention of the printing press. You will find that scribes of the 5th, 6th and 7th century were very successful in spreading the Gospel among the illiterate barbarians of Europe.
2. I am not "desperately trying to defend" the doctrine. I am challenging you because you have created an argument based on a logical fallacy and failed to prove your case on three of the most important points. You have dogmatically made bold statements that are based in an incorrect reading of scripture.
3. I never said I was offended.
Jacob, it is the nature of cults to take a single verse of scripture and use it create a dogmatic doctrine - particularly based on an interpretation from a single translation. Many of the concerns you have can be answered by looking at the original languages. Some things are just not given the full definition in English, because it would take a full sentence to translate a single Hebrew word, such as "sheol".
I encourage you to go back and study the "whole counsel of scripture" before you take a piece of it and build a new dogma that is so deeply in conflict with the historical doctrines of the church that are based in the rigorous study of thousands of theologians who have gone before us. To take something so far out of phase of the mainstream requires a mountain of evidence, which you have not provided.
Blessings,
~ Scribe
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Permalink Reply by Visitor on
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I don't understand why professing Christians are wasting their time discussing such topics that do nothing but hinder our growth. How is this essential to the Christian faith?
2 Timothy 2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
Instead of trying to learn of the origin of Satan...learn the origin of your sin and repent from your lusts. Secondly, I have no desire to know about Satan, but all the desire to know about God ... which all of you should do.
In Christ,
Visitor
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Excellent point visitor.
CS Lewis put it well that there are two dangers concerning the Devil: 1. is to ignore his existence... - and - 2. to make too much out of his presence. (my paraphrase)
Our focus should be Christ and the Gospel.
I do think there are inherent dangers in reinventing doctrines and making bold assertions that these are facts, when they are clearly conjecture based on fallacy.
Blessings,
~ Scribe
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Well! Well!
I tried to warn you guys, messing around with that which is not revealed in Scripture. As I said, it would not be long before it implodes and you started to doubt your faith and ask yourself: "what happened to the Joy I knew" and now we see that a doctrine is being invented and dozens of statements without scriptural references being made as though it was scripture. Satan loves this and will urge you on, as well he has.
Finally AAG members, who are here to assist those who need help are being given a doctrine out of the pit of hell which can easily drag down those who are new to the faith. Exactly what Satan wants.
I understand Scribe that you are trying to help and this is fine, BUT I recommend that this discussion be closed, immediately and those willing to continue this debate, exchange email addresses and carry on from there. Also kill all the articles on this subject, we DON'T need it here on AAG.
Seems I have heard this somewhere before "Did God Say?"
Ron
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Permalink Reply by DK on
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VISITOR:
NO ONE IS WASTING THEIR TIME studying the scriptures and discussing any topic they contain. HOW ELSE CAN WE LEARN? All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2Ti 3:16,17
IF WE HAVE AN ENEMY WE SHOULD KNOW HIM. HOW ELSE CAN YOU WIN A WAR?
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
2Co 2:11
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Mat 4:1
SOONER OR LATER WE WILL HAVE TO COME FACE TO FACE WITH THE ENEMY SOME TIME IN OUR LIFE. IT IS THERE WE WILL SEE THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. JESUS WAS LED OF THE SPIRIT TO BE TEMPTED OF THE DEVIL. WE ARE NOT ABOVE OUR LORD. WE MUST BE THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS BY KNOWING THE SCRIPTURES.
(notice the scriptures that Jesus quoted)
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Permalink Reply by Terry Duncan on
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Rusty and Jacob, you are both missing the point. The topic is about the ORIGIN of Satan. What does the bible state about the ORIGIN of Satan? it is clear that it is almost silent on that topic. Nothing in scripture tells us when Satan fell, or when he was created. A famous quote by wise Christians is "Speak where the bible speaks be silent where the bible is silent." What's going on here? quite the opposite. Trying to figure out the ORIGIN of Satan is not the same as knowing your enemy in the sense that we are to know of his cunning devices, such as deceiving professing believers into arguing about his origin while they can study the meat of the word. If you want to know Satan's so-called "ORIGIN" look to the apocryphal gospel which is most likely false. You can continue to wrangle about a topic about the ORIGIN of Satan where the scripture is silent on. I on the other hand know it is WISER to pursue doctrines and the MEAT of the Word that will help me grow spiritually. I will no longer waste my time on this thread...and I hope the both of you are wise enough to do so too.
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I fully endorse "Vistor's" comments.
It would appear that Satan has become the major topic on AAG and has each of you discussing a topic that cannot be found in Scripture.
Has God not promised us that we are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost it's savour, it is good for nothing and needs to be caste out and trodden under the feet of men? Mat 5:13
Why then are we on about the origin of Satan? By doing this we continually place him on a pedestal. Are we not supposed to be the light of the world, leading others towards that light?
If we are, then we should rather be walking in the light, lest the darkness overtakes us and be sure that if you persist, the devil will gladly help you lose you way.
"Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. John 12:35.
IF you have been called out of darkness, why do you persist in this subject on the devil, when in fact you should be discussing the virtues of Him who called you out into the Light? "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" 1Peter 2:9
Again, persist in walking this road, then be sure, that soon enough you will be asking yourselves why have I lost the Joy that I had, Why do I feel unsaved, why have I begun to doubt God's Word?
You will have no need to look any further than your persistence in this worthless discussion.
Carry on scratching the devils's back and you will receive your rewards soon enough.
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty 2Corinthians 6:15 - 18
The Lord have mercy on us all,
Ron
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Yes, Nancy I think that we ALL NEED TO REPENT.
Rather let us simply repent quietly on our own. Which will be far better than to even reply to this message, thereby once again, giving satan another foothold here on AAG.
As for one comment made here on AAG about winning a war..... WAKE UP! THAT WAR HAS ALREADY BEEN WON!
"Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 1Peter 5:6-7
Your Brother and Friend in Christ.
Ron
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