The Rapture

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Natasha Mayes on July 8, 2009 at 10:09am

Do you per chance read books by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins? I believe that the Bride of Christ will be raptured before tribulation. The Bride, of course is the true church or Body of Christ as described in Revelation 3:7-13 (the church of Philidelphia) In this passage we also find the promise "since you have kept My command to endure patiently, I WILL ALSO KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL THAT IS GOING TO COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD..." Also, since the church is not mentioned once in the rest of Revelation after John was commanded to "come up here", it is an indication to me that the Church will not be here during the events described. Also according to Paul's 1st letter to the Thessalonians we will be "caught up...in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always be with the Lord!" Note the difference between this verse, and the verse where we receive the assurance that He will return in "JUST THE SAME WAY in which you saw Him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11) Another ecsample we find in Titus 2:13 where Paul talks of "looking for that blessed hope, AND the glorious appearing..." Paul is refering here to two seperate events: The Rapture (blessed hope) and the 2nd coming (glorious appearing) of Christ.

Permalink Reply by Natasha Mayes on July 12, 2009 at 11:58am

Actually I made a small mistake by saying the church isn't mentioned again after Rev 3. It is mentioned again only after chapter 18, after the tribulation when Christ returns with His bride to set up the Millenial kingdom.
Many appologies!!!
Natasha

Permalink Reply by Natasha Mayes on July 8, 2009 at 12:51pm

I appologise. I had to run an errand before I got to finish my comment earlier.
It is a miconception that the 7-year tribulation will begin with the Rapture. We cannot know exactly when the Rapture will occur but I believe that the tribulation will begin on the day Israel signs a 7-year covenant with Anti-christ. (Dan 9:27). It is possible that that covenant could be signed immediately after the rapture though that is unlikely. My reason for saying this is simple: Imagine a world where millions of people just dissapeared "in the blink of an eye". Pilots flying at 30000ft suddenly gone; motorists driving on a busy highway, GONE; train drivers, farmers plowing in a field, mothers attending school concerts, fathers playing ball with their boys, hospital workers, fire fighters, the list goes on forever; can you imagine the resulting chaos? (Luke 17:34-35 "On that night, I tell you, there will be two people sleeping in the same bed: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind. Two women will be grinding corn together: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind.")Can you see where I'm going with this? The world will need time to orginise itself first in the aftermath of all the catastrophies resulting from the Rapture. Of course, the Rapture itself will be the perfect cause for Anti-christ to officially begin his reign. At that point, following the Rapture, I believe that any opposition to a one world government will vanish as the people left behind will search for (and find) what they will believe to be the great uniter, that will bring peace to a chaotic world.

Permalink Reply by deedee310 on July 13, 2009 at 11:33pm

I agree with you, I was taught that the Rapture will happen first, then the tribulation will begin with the seven year treaty.
There will also be a lie told to deceive the people as to what really happen to those who disappeared. It is so scary to think about it... I am trying my best to live right and get right with God, I know that these events are so close and I for sure dont want to be left here to suffer through it.

Permalink Reply by Natasha Mayes on July 8, 2009 at 1:17pm

An explanation for: "Time of Jacobs trouble" also known as "The seventy weeks of Daniel"
A study of Daniel 9 tells us of "seventy 'sevens' that are decreed for your people" (verse 24) A 'seven is a unit of seven years. Thus: seventy units of seven years or 490 years.
It continues to describe the sequince of events as follows: "from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Annointed One, the Ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens' and sixty two 'sevens'"
Jewish History tells us that from the going forth of the decree of Cyrus, it took the Jews under both Ezra and Nehemia 49 years to complete the building of the walls of Jerusalem. That is the first seven 'sevens'.
It took a further 434 years between the rebuilding of the Temple and the crucifixion of Christ. This is the 62 'sevens'.
That leaves us with one 'seven left' unaccounted for. We are currently living in a time of grace (Isa 61:2) which started with Jesus's death and resurection. The final 'seven' thus, refers to the seven year tribulation.

Permalink Reply by deedee310 on July 8, 2009 at 9:09pm

I have read books by Tim Lahaye, David Jeremiah, Pastor Hagee, Hal Lindsey.. and a few others. I have also researched this subject over the internet (although a lot of the pages I found on the net were not reputable)

Permalink Reply by Natasha Mayes on July 9, 2009 at 1:50am

Try and get your hands on a book called "Revelation unveiled" and another book "Are we living in the end times?" both co-written by Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins. I've also been a subscriber of The Good News magazine, which is a free service rendered by the United Church of God. You'll be amazed at the insights gained from these publications.

Permalink Reply by deedee310 on July 9, 2009 at 10:58am

Oh yes! I am already suscribed to these publications!
There is another one out there called Tomorrows world. I think the website is tomorrowsworld.org
They have interesting facts as well. Some of the things I dont agree with, but for the most part they are on it as far as what is going on in the world today and the current events.

Permalink Reply by Pastor Johnny J Christen on July 12, 2009 at 8:20am

Hi Sister Dee

I am a preacher in the Philippines I to very much enjoy the teachings of Tomorrows world. Although I do not agree with a few of their teachings, I do believe that they are the closest to the truth I have found so far!
The pre tribulation rapture theory is less than 200 years old. It started with a little 14 year old girls dream or vision named Margret Mac Donald from Scotland in 1830.

You can look these things up for yourself; it’s all over the net, first of all the bible says that no one is going anywhere until just before or as the last or {Seventh trumpet blows}
1 Cor 15:50-57
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

{{{Sister 6 trumpets must blow before the seventh or last, Christ cannot return until just before the last trumpet is blows}}}!!!
It’s called post trib- pre wrath.

When the last or seventh trumpet blows God/Elohim will literally pure out his full wrath upon the earth. We are not appointed to God’s wrath. So true Christians at that point will escape Gods wrath.

Let’s look at 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, {even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him}.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, {{{that we which are alive and {remain} unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep}. {{{the dead in Christ must be resurrected first before we can go anywhere and this is a biblical fact!!!
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: {{{and the dead in Christ shall rise first}}}:
17Then we which are {{{alive and remain}}} shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. {{{remain until when??? The second coming of Christ which every eye shall see!!! It’s not a secret event. There only one second coming of Christ and one collection of his Elect.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Christ told his handpicked apostles exactly when he would return Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 Joel 2 and so on and so on!!!
Let’s just look at Matthew 24 ok,

Matthew 24:29-31
29{{{Immediately after the tribulation of those days}}} shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30{{{And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven}}}: {{{NOT BEFORE}}} and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, {{{and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory}}}.
31{{{And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet}}}-{The last Trumpet}, and {{{they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other}}}.

Question, when shall they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory? And when shall Christ gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other}}}.

Answer!!! Immediately after the tribulation of those days!!!

There is only one appearing of Christ in the clouds with power and great glory and only one collection of his elect, biblical fact!!!

Again Mark 13

24But in those days, {{{after that tribulation}}}, {{{the sun shall be darkened}}}, {{{and the moon shall not give her light}}},
25{{{And the stars of heaven shall fall}}}, {{{and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken}}}.
26And t{{{hen shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory}}}.
27And{{{ then shall he send his angels}}}, {{{and shall gather together his elect from the four winds}}}, {{{from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven}}}.

Now go back to verse 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Now half of this Prophesy was fulfilled in 70 AD but this is a two part Prophesy, I’ll show you.

2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our{{{gathering together unto him}}}= {{{The Rapture}}},
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: {{{for that day shall not come}}}, {{{except there come a falling away first}}}={The great apostasy}}}, {{{and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition}}}; {{{WE MUST SEE HIM WITH OUR OWN EYES}}}

The return of Christ cannot take place until {{{The man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition}}} and that will not take place until the second half of the tribulation or the last three and a half years! Because we must see him sit in the temple and claim to be God almighty and demined to be worshipped as God}}}

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
The bible states over and over that only he who endures unto the end the same shall be saved. Endure what??? If were taken out of here before it all starts than what would we have to endure?

Look at Joel 2:28-32

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that {{{I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh}}}; {{{and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy}}}, {{{your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions}}}:
Quote this will happen when all the cosmic sings in the heavens happen matching Matthew 24, this shows that we will be the salt and light of the earth during this most horrible horrific darkest hour the world has ever seen or will ever see again

If we the salt and light of the earth are taken out of the tribulation than who will be here to witness and minister to the lost at this time?
And if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way during this time than what in the world would be able to convict lost sinners unto repentance and salvation?

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

{This is just before the last trumpet blows and we are all caught up to be with the Lord forever more}.

My precious Sister just the fact that Christendom is so divided proves 100% that it cannot possibly be of God!!! See 1 Cor 1:10 and 12:25
The bible clearly teaches that Christ is the living word of God that became flesh and dwelt among us John 1:1-14
So don’t get mixed up with all this manmade denominational sectarian counterfeit religion.
The bible is the living word of God which is Christ himself, true followers of Christ are not Baptist Catholics Pentecostals JW’S SDA Mormons or anything other manmade religious organization on the face of the earth, therefore come out from among them my precious sister and trust no mans teachings, not even mine, true Christians are followers of the living word alone={ the scriptures} just read the whole NT slowly by yourself and live according to each and every word written in it the best you can with the help and guidance of the holy spirit}

1 John 2:22-27
20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things

26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Some things to think about!!!

The gospel of John 6
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the {{{last day}}}
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the {{{last day}}.
. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the {{{last day}}}.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the {{{last day}}}.

LOOK AT THIS!!! 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Now if the best friend if Christ which he loved so much has to waite until the {{{LAST DAST}}} to be resurrected than where does that leave you and I???
48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Sister please think very hard about this ok, the {{{LAST DAY}}} is not the day before the great tribulation starts its exactully when Christ sais it would be in Matthew 24={{{ Immediately after the tribulation of those days}}} the very words of Christ himself!!!
{{{If the dead in Christ have to waite until the last day where does that leave us which are alive}}}?

Do not listen to man because EVERY MAN IS A LIAR AND ONLY GOD IS TRUE!!!

Revelation 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, {{{I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained}}}.
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, {{{I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held}}}: {{{first century saints}}}
10And {{{they cried with a loud voice}}}, {{{saying, How long}}}, O Lord, holy and true, {{{dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth}}}?
11And {{{white robes were given unto every one of them}}}; and it was said unto them,{{{ that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren}}}, {{{that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled}}}=during the great tribulation}}}.= {{{us tribulation saints}}}
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ={the cosmic sings in heaven and earth}
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand
Christ will not return until the end of the 6th seal just before the 7th the seal is opened and God pours his wrath upon the earth=post trib-pre wrath!!!

There is no such thing as secret rapture before the great tribulation, there is only one second coming of Christ and only one collect of his Elect exactly as Christ said= {{{Immediately after the tribulation of those days}}}
There’s so much more but I am very sick and tired but I truly love you my Sister and want you to stand firm on biblical truth not on manmade theories.

May God/Elohim himself truly hold you and yours until the return of our Messiah!!!

Yours in Yeshua the Messiah

Pastor/Evangelist
Johnny J Christen
pastorchristen@yahoo.com
Home phone from America 011-63-33-531-9045
Cell phone 011-9082275169
Be blessed

Permalink Reply by Natasha Mayes on July 12, 2009 at 12:00pm

From: "Are we living in the end times" by J. Jenkins and T. La Haye p 115.

'Sermon on the End of the World' written by Ephraim of Nisibis (Psuedo- Nisibis, since the author of this document was never proven without a doubt to be him). Transcripts dated between AD 306 - 627 were found were the author of it (Pseudo-Nisibus) wrote the following.

"Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting with the Lord Jesus Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?...All the saints and elect of God are gathering together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins"

The above quote was quoted by the writers of the book previously mentioned from Grant Jeffrey's book, Apocalypse p85-94. (Frontier Research Publication, 1992)

As we see from this quote, some-one have been able to discern a pre-tibulation rapture somewhere between the 4th and 7th century!

Permalink Reply by Rick Kelly on July 13, 2009 at 12:10am

EXCELLENT POST Pastor Christen !!!

I agree with you 100%. It is really sad to see so many Christians being taken in by the "Rapture Theory", because that's all it is, a theory. We see them all getting ready for the rapture, instead of putting on the Armour of GOD. They will have trouble standing, in the last days, against the wiles of the devil. Eph 6:11 - 13 For lack of knowledge they will fall prey to the evil one. Continue your prayers for our deceived brothers & sisters and also the lost the LORD is seeking.

See you at the Wedding Feast
A Brother in JESUS
.Rick.

Permalink Reply by deedee310 on July 13, 2009 at 11:35pm

I believe that God gave some people visions and insight as to what is going to happen during those times.

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