Power of the Congregation

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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on December 28, 2008 at 7:04pm

I would think that the only reason should be if the person shows outward disrespect toward the church and its principles. But I'm not quoting from the Bible; therefore, consider this just one person's opinion.

Love,
Ginnyb

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Permalink Reply by Carla on December 28, 2008 at 8:28pm

Hi Bev....What on earth would cause such a thing? Did you see this happen?

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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on December 28, 2008 at 10:26pm

Hi Bev,
I believe Paul’s letter to the Corinthians deals with your question.
I have used E. Petersen’s version of the New Testament “The Message” which does make easy reading in this instance. I could have just given you the chapter and verse references, but felt that “The Message” is so clear on this issue and mainly because there may not be many who have "The Message" to read.
When we have serious problems in the church, we shouldn't act as if everything is just fine when one of our Christian companions is promiscuous or crooked, is flip with God or rude to friends, gets drunk or becomes greedy and predatory. You can't just go along with this and treat it as acceptable behavior
We are not responsible for what unbelievers do, but we do have responsibility for those within our community of believers?
God decides on the unbelievers, but we need to decide when our brothers and sisters are out of line and, if necessary, clean the house.

Note: Paul in his second letter is also prepared to accept the man back into the community, seeing that he has repented.

“The Message”
“I also received a report of scandalous sex within your church family, a kind that wouldn't be tolerated even outside the church: One of your men is sleeping with his stepmother.
And you're so above it all that it doesn't even faze you! Shouldn't this break your hearts? Shouldn't it bring you to your knees in tears? Shouldn't this person and his conduct be confronted and dealt with?
I'll tell you what I would do. Even though I'm not there in person, consider me right there with you, because I can fully see what's going on. I'm telling you that this is wrong. You must not simply look the other way and hope it goes away on its own. Bring it out in the open and deal with it in the authority of Jesus our Master.
Assemble the community--I'll be present in spirit with you and our Master Jesus will be present in power.
Hold this man's conduct up to public scrutiny. Let him defend it if he can! But if he can't, then out with him! It will be totally devastating to him, of course, and embarrassing to you. But better devastation and embarrassment than damnation. You want him on his feet and forgiven before the Master on the Day of Judgment.
Your flip and callous arrogance in these things bothers me. You pass it off as a small thing, but it's anything but that. Yeast, too, is a "small thing," but it works its way through a whole batch of bread dough pretty fast.
So get rid of this "yeast." Our true identity is flat and plain, not puffed up with the wrong kind of ingredient. The Messiah, our Passover Lamb, has already been sacrificed for the Passover meal, and we are the Unraised Bread part of the Feast.
So let's live out our part in the Feast, not as raised bread swollen with the yeast of evil, but as flat bread--simple, genuine, unpretentious.
I wrote you in my earlier letter that you shouldn't make yourselves at home among the sexually promiscuous.
I didn't mean that you should have nothing at all to do with outsiders of that sort. Or with crooks, whether blue- or white-collar. Or with spiritual phonies, for that matter. You'd have to leave the world entirely to do that!
But I am saying that you shouldn't act as if everything is just fine when one of your Christian companions is promiscuous or crooked, is flip with God or rude to friends, gets drunk or becomes greedy and predatory. You can't just go along with this, treating it as acceptable behavior
I'm not responsible for what the outsiders do, but don't we have some responsibility for those within our community of believers?
God decides on the outsiders, but we need to decide when our brothers and sisters are out of line and, if necessary, clean the house.” 1Cor 5:1-12 (MSG)

Paul’s 2nd letter giving confirmation of accepting the man back into the community.

“Now, regarding the one who started all this--the person in question who caused all this pain--I want you to know that I am not the one injured in this as much as, with a few exceptions, all of you. So I don't want to come down too hard.
What the majority of you agreed to as punishment is punishment enough.
Now is the time to forgive this man and help him back on his feet. If all you do is pour on the guilt, you could very well drown him in it.
My counsel now is to pour on the love.
The focus of my letter wasn't on punishing the offender but on getting you to take responsibility for the health of the church. So if you forgive him, I forgive him. Don't think I'm carrying around a list of personal grudges. The fact is that I'm joining in with your forgiveness, as Christ is with us, guiding us.” 2Cor 2:5-10 (MSG)

May the Holy Spirit constantly remind us that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit living within us.

Ron

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 29, 2008 at 2:07pm

This issue is an interesting one with several view points. I do not know all the details regarding the pastor who had remarried, but there are some simple points here.

1) The language regarding "one wife" is confusing, at least today. Does it mean one wife ever or one at a time as some claim. Up to about 100 years ago this was never really an issue, at least as I understand church history. The subject became highlighted when divorce become more prevelant.
2) Regardless of where one stands on the issue there is another parameter to guide an individual regarding a particular denomination or organization. Most have a statement of faith regarding this issue. Some clearly state that in order to pastor in their organization you cannot have remarried, unless your previous wife had died. Divorce and remarriage is not acceptable to them. When you are licensed or ordained you know the organizations standards. You accept them and agree to abide by them or you will resign and seek to minister elsewhere. If you disagree, then you should never have joined that organization to start with. If you find yourself divorced and remarried and then asked to step down, one should not be surprised. The rules did not change and the person cannot seek to justify it and stay. They simply need to move on. One could choose to step down and seek to make changes within the group, but they must adhere to the leadership over them. One could simply go to another group that accepts remarried pastors if they feel still called to pastor a church. If the person argues that they have spent their life building the particular church and should not have to leave, this is not the criteria for staying or leaving. The criteria is what did you agree to when you were licensed/ordained.

Now, none of this speaks to the manner in which the particular pastor in this case was dismissed. We do not know what went on in the boardroom. Was he reminded of the organizations stance on the subject? Was he asked to step down and refuse? The organization would have the right to pull his license and remove him. Did they try to work with him or just terminate him? I know many would say that they are required to work toward restoration, but how is that possible if their statement of faith clearly defines this as unaaceptable and the pastor has remarried. He could stay in fellowship, but not in leadership in such an organization. Most likely he would decline. I know churches can turn quickly, but if they really loved him there has to be some behind the scene info missing here in my opinion. Keep in mind that not all that goes on in board meetings or committees is shared openly, and there are various reasons for this.

Do not look bad on the organization for taking a stand for what they believe on a subject that some consider debatable. To them it is not and the pastor would have known what the organization believed on this issue.

Many wonder why we have various denominations. There are numerous topics that have varied interpretations like this one. Peole are passionate about their view of it and like individuals gather together. In some cases the group splits and two are born out of one. Neither really wrong and neither absolutely right. Both can love Jesus with equally as great passion, but have certain differences that hinder solid fellowship. Going off topic just a little further, some would say that this is why I don't believe in denominations, but rather independent churches. Don't fool yourself. They don't agree with every other church, independent or not, on every subject either. Many, not all, independent churches exist because they do not wish to be held accountable by others. I can give cases of abuse after abuse in this scenario, but will not.

Enough for now,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 29, 2008 at 2:30pm

Bev,

I would simply add that this is not about forgiveness, but rather qualifications in the organizations view regarding what they understand God's Word to say. They read that he is disqualified to pastor by the list given in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. They truly believe they are honoring God and His Word. Whether they are right or wrong is debatable.

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 29, 2008 at 2:52pm

Bev,

The right or wrong is debatable because the langaue is not crystal clear. I believe the evidence, when evaluated, sides with us not ordaining or keeping one who is divorced and remarried. I believe this applies to elders and deacons as well according to the same text listed above. This view is becoming increasingly unpopular, but popularity does not determine doctrine :-)

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on December 30, 2008 at 12:35pm

This post has moved from “Has the congregation the power to expel a member” to the one wife concept in 1st Tim 3:2.

I have always found Paul’s advice to Timothy intriguing.
The verse creates a number of questions.
1. Must the Bishop (A minister of religion) be married in order to be the leader of the
congregation?
2. Would that mean that if he was not married he would have to get married in order to be a Bishop with one wife?
3. Polygamy was not uncommon and practiced at that time. Would this mean that if the Bishop had more than one wife, he would have to divorce one of them?
4. If the bishop’s first wife had died and he married a second. Would this exclude him from being the husband of one wife?
5. Because polygamy was practiced, is it possible, that while the Bishop had to be the husband of one wife, the church members could have more than one wife? If this is not possible, then why the rule? Some members of the congregation must have had more than one wife?
6. Would this be understood to be the start of prohibiting polygamy in the Church?

Forgive me, but there are times I just cannot resist playing the devil's advocate.

The Lord Bless us all through the New Year to come.

Your Brother in Christ ~ Ron

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 30, 2008 at 12:36pm

Hey Charles,

Blessings to you and thanks for the kind word. I too appreciate your posts. You do not shoot from the hip. It is apparent that you give thought to your responses. Without a doubt, God can and does use all saved sinners. It is His call upo each ones life thet each must seek, regardless of the position, for all are important in the body of Christ.

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 31, 2008 at 3:46am

JB,

The question is not about sin and forgiveness, but rather qualification. The qualification list is found and established in the New Testament and therefore taught under grace, not the Law. Thus the list cannot be tossed aside. It is applicable to the church today without question. The key is in one's interpretation of the verses in questions (as stated before). If a group believes the interpretation means one wife (no divorce and remarriage), then they are free to establish the standard, guidelines for one to minister through their organization. If one disagrees with them, they are free to move on. No one is trapped or forced to join or stay in an organization. When I joined the organization I am with I told the licensing board that i would minister in this group as long as their beliefs and my beliefs align. The day they differ on important issues, I will move on (if that day comes). Why change happens is another issue for another post.

Regarding their call and casting them aside. Two points. 1) Some callings are seasonal. We often think that God's gift and calling are for life. God can midstream call us off into another direction or He may leave us in the same position (calling) for life. It is His gift and His call to give as He deems appropriate. Are all who minister truly called? Another question for another post. 2) Why would one think that God cast them aside just because they are not allowed to continue as a pastor? Is the pastorate the only position of service in the kingdom of God? Is it the only important position or but one of many positions that fill out the body of Christ? There are many areas in which a person can serve God, bear fruit and experience a full rich life. If they still feel called, then they can go to an organization that accepts their situation, do not expect the group to change for them. Look at it from another point of view. If the group believes the one wife means never divorced and remarried (right or wrong, because it is debatable) and the man has before coming into the ministry remarries, or does so while in the ministry, and the the man pushes to become or stay a pastor, they believe that he is not submitting to the Word of God. They see the text as plain and the man as in rebellion to that text (right or wrong) that is the perception. Are they to allow a person who is in rebellion (their perception) towards God's Word minister God's Word?

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Annie on February 5, 2009 at 10:59pm

I don't believe anyone should be 'Run Out' of a church. We should be asking ourselves.. 'What would Jesus Do?' I have never seen anyone treated that way yet, I pray I never do. Jesus came for sinner's did'nt he? Not for those who are already perfect? But I am afraid I have not met a perfect human being yet.
Annie

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