Can we lose our Salvation?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 14, 2009 at 3:06am

Hi Carlo,

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here but I came across your question, and just wanted to share this scripture with you.

Your question:
What happens to a saved born-again Christian, who, in a moment of weaknes, commits sinfull acts, then dies before repenting, or say, Christ returns to earth, and you (a saved, born-again Christian) are sitting in a stripclub, with some work colleagues?

Genesis 4:7 (Cain and Abel)
Gen 4:7 You will be accepted if you respond in the right way. But if you refuse to respond correctly, then watch out! Sin is waiting to attack and destroy you, and you must subdue it."

In 1 John 3:12,13, the context is loving one another....but the point I want to make here is that if we live for God, the world will hate us, because we make them painfully aware of their immoral way of living.

1Jo 3:12 We must not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and killed his brother. And why did he kill him? Because Cain had been doing what was evil, and his brother had been doing what was right.

1Jo 3:13 So don't be surprised, dear brothers and sisters, [fn] if the world hates you.


If a born-again Christian behaves in a way that dishonors God, he must repent and ask for forgiveness, but never take advantage of God's Grace. Of coarse none of us is without sin, that is where the Awesome Gift of Salvation and Grace comes in...but we must always determine to live according to God's Standards. Do not be afraid to offend people by telling them 'NO'. Fear God instead. Sometimes people may try to insist or 'pressure' others by intimidation and control. If they know we are born-again, and we 'go along with them' then they get to call us a hypocrite, which causes us to doubt our own Salvation, and God working in us! Participating in sin overtly, denies God. You will also open doors you don't want opened---spiritually speaking.

Paul says this in the book of Philippians:
Phl 2:13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and the power to do what pleases him.

Mark says this:
Mar 8:35 If you try to keep your life for yourself, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake and for the sake of the Good News, you will find true life.
Mar 8:36 And how do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul [fn] in the process?
Mar 8:37 Is anything worth more than your soul?
Mar 8:38 If a person is ashamed of me and my message in these adulterous and sinful days, I, the Son of Man, will be ashamed of that person when I return in the glory of my Father with the holy angels."

The apostle John says this:
1Jo 3:9 Those who have been born into God's family do not sin, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they have been born of God.


In the book of Romans, Paul writes this:
Rom 6:1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more kindness and forgiveness?
Rom 6:2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it?

Read also Romans 7:14-25

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.

We never know where God is working, your testimony may just lead someone to Christ. It may also get you 'un-invited' in the future...which would make it easy to say 'no'. :)

There is lots of scripture here, I encourage you to spend time looking it up.
Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Rob Holden on January 13, 2009 at 9:42pm

I agree with LT,

The result of our back-and-forth causes me to spend time in the word, in prayer and pondering our points of view. Besides, I enjoy the discussion, as long as it remains civil and respectful, for which it has. If our beliefs are true, then they will stand up to scrutiny.

Applying Healthy scrutiny is a virtue... after all the Bible asks us to watch out for false prophets, false Christs etc. and gives us criteria to scrutinize them.

Anyhow, our doctrinal differences pale in comparison to our love for Christ.

Carlos, you are right in the sense that I would not die for the doctrine of "Once salved you can fall away and reach the point where you no longer have relationship with Christ" (letting your lamp oil run out). However I would die for the doctrine that Jesus is the Son of God, because that's not-negotiable.

Our brother LT has made some great points, of many which I am still weighing and pondering and listening for the Holy Spirit on. I look forward to his interpretations of the scriptures--the ones that after all, I based my view upon.

Permalink Reply by Carlo on January 14, 2009 at 1:47am

Thanks to both LT and Rob for your views, I shall keep an eye on this dicussion, you made me realise that if it was so silly, why did I sit and read through it all....... Sometimes we can only smile at ourselves. Anyhow, whether or not you can lose your salvation, I think the most important thing is that we should not sin, and try and guide our friends away from sin too. If they do stumble, we should pray non-stop for their return to the path.

In Jesus Christ, Lord of Creation and Saviour of Mankind
May you be well, and may your debates provide answers to all of us
Carlo [without the S]

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 14, 2009 at 3:37am

Carlo,

Understood and welcome to AAG :-)

No doubt, if one is growing closer to God, then a line (whether there or not) to cross which could cost one their salvation would never come into play.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 15, 2009 at 3:54pm

Hey Rob,

The following is my response to the verses you listed.

1 Timothy 4:1
“The faith” here relates to a path and it can apply to anyone walking in the path. The person may or may not be converted. 1 Tim. 4:6 relates to the lifestyle/path of faith. They may have embraced God intellectually and have fallen away or they may have been simply led astray. We see these as apostates. You would see it as falling away from the salvation. I see it as falling away from the path a Christian should be walking in to please Father God.

Paul uses the term faith as a way of life or right path throughout 1 Timothy. The following are examples: 1 Timothy 2:7, 3:9, 4:6, 5:8, and 6:10-12.

Colossians 2:8
This verse is not related to salvation. It relates to the path you are on. I see it as one going astray potentially for a season. No one has full knowledge of all the things of God. Look at some of the false teachers that have arose in our era. People who love Jesus have flocked to them and will follow them for a season. Some come out after a period others come out after the false ministry collapses. There are some of these ministries operating today and many saved people are being led astray by their teaching believing that God is in it to this day. Their mind has been fooled, but they still love Jesus.

For the assurance in and through Christ we must read the rest of chapter 2 and into chapter 3.

2 Peter 3:17
“Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.” KJV 2 Pe 3:17

In the Greek it relates to continuing in the path, the way of life.

It relates to being led away from the path that is pleasing to God. It does not mean salvation lost. Can a church fall into error and lose its witness and therefore lose its effectiveness for the kingdom?

Colossians 2:18
The prize is not identified as salvation. The person who is attempting to lead others astray is not connected to the head or the body. Thus, he is referring to a false teacher in 18b-19.

In the Greek the word translated here (only time found in Scripture) as “disqualify for the prize” means to lead astray, to beguile.

Paul goes on in Col. 2:20-23 to explain that it is foolish to depart from the path and return to the ways of the world.

Then he reminds his readers where their minds and attention should be focused.
“If then you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.” Col. 3:1-4

The opening “if” is not “If you stay the course.” It relates to “if” you are saved then we should do these things because we have already died in Christ and our life is hidden with Christ. I see conversion in the present and the complete fulfillment as future.

Hebrews 2:1; 1 Timothy 6:20-21; 2 Corinthians 11; and 2 Thes. 2:3
One can be led astray. This is not in question. The result and consequences of being led astray are the issue as stated before.

1 Timothy 1:18-20
One must include verses 16 and 17 to understand the meaning of 18-20. Then we can step further back and see the deeper meaning of the whole letter as well.

“Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.” 1 Tim. 1:16-17 NIV

“Paul names two examples of those who have shipwrecked their faith: Hymenaeus and Alexander. The former is mentioned again as a heretical teacher in 2Ti 2:17; the latter is probably "Alexander the metalworker," who did Paul a great deal of harm (2Ti 4:14). The apostle had handed these two ringleaders "over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme" (cf. 1Co 5:5, where this phrase indicates excommunication from the church). The purpose was to jolt the offenders to repentance, induced by the fearful thought of being turned over to Satan's control. Its purpose, therefore, is remedial, not punitive.” NIVBC

Hebrews 10: 26-27
Rhetorical. Thus if one were to fall away they never could be redeemed. These two verses have to be read in light of Heb. 10:1-25. It is helpful to read them in light of the whole Book of Hebrews as well which includes the eternal sacrifice of Christ and Him serving as the true High Priest.

2 Peter 2:20-21
These people know the right path, chose to walk in obedience to the law, but never are converted. They are referred to as “Dogs” (v.22). God simply does not refer to His children as dogs. In verse 20 in the Greek the verse means to “escape the defilement of this world.”

Earlier in 2 Peter we read the following words of assurance:
“His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” 2 Peter 1:3-11 NIV

Matthew 24:10-13
Deals with end times, as Matthew 24 and 25 are prophecies to Israel dealing with the end times. It does not directly relate to the church.

Revelation 3:11-12
Which crown is in question? To “him who overcomes” is a promise similar to saying “those who overcome.” How do we overcome? 1 John 5:4-5.

Heb. 3:12
Standing alone or even as a short portion of Scripture this would be the hardest to address. The author is speaking to Hebrew believers carrying their historical baggage. The author is laying the ground work leading up to the greater understanding found in later chapters relating to the new covenant and as we find Jesus as our High Priest and eternal sacrifice. This verse has to be read in light of the main teaching (theme) of the Book of Hebrews with the intended reader, the Hebrew believers, in mind.

My conclusion at this point is:
In your view you must work to keep the relationship. I rest in Christ and trust in that relationship to keep me. I believe that the conversion takes place at salvation, the moment we surrender to Jesus, and is not reversible. God is the author and initiator of the new covenant and I am covered eternally in and through the work of Christ. It depends on Him, not me. My effectiveness for the kingdom here on earth is another story.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 15, 2009 at 3:58pm

JN 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Food for thought,
LT

Permalink Reply by Rob Holden on January 21, 2009 at 5:55am

Brother LT,

I am very intrigued and have been deeply pondering and weighing the things you have shared. I’ve been listening for the Lord’s leading on these matters.

In my heart I want to believe OSAS, but I still have reservations from scripture that prevent me from embracing it as a universal doctrine. I think OSAS can be true on an individual level, as I believe the deposit of the Holy Spirit is evidence of our salvation. However as we discussed, it is not the strong in faith but the weak—those who persist in sin; the deceived; and those who abandon the faith under persecution that I’m addressing. It is from scripture where I see exceptions to OSAS.

I recognize we approach this discussion from different perspectives. You view “salvation” in a broad sense that encompasses all of the elements (eternal life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, relationship, etc.)—while I view salvation in a literal sense (meaning “saved from death” by the transfer of blame to Christ) as a literal gift to the believer in Christ. You view our role in the relationship with God as passive, while I view it as essential. You view salvation as the prerequisite for relationship, starting with Pentecost—while I see relationship from the beginning, including Abraham, whom God called a friend; to King David, a man after God’s own heart; to scriptural evidence of salvation for Enoch, Elijah and Moses well before Pentecost. (I felt you ignored the appearances at the transfiguration in my last post.) You view repentance as mainly a “change of mind “ for one who comes to the realization of who Jesus Christ is—while I view repentance as more than just an acknowledgment of who Christ is (see Luke 4:41) but also that of a repentant lifestyle: one who routinely confesses (1 John 1:9) and turns from their sin. I think there is a fundamental difference between someone who routinely sins, confesses and repents versus someone who gives themselves entirely over to sin (when sin replaces Christ as Lord). I agree with you that the Holy Spirit convicts and God provides divine discipline. You seem to end it there, where I want to take it to the logical conclusion that those things are done to compel our free will into alignment.

Most of the arguments to the scriptures I supplied you spoke of "the path" of the believer. Help me work through a couple of these:

1 Timothy 4:1
“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons”

… I see it as falling away from the path a Christian should be walking in to please Father God…

In most of your responses to the verses I supplied, you routinely bring up what you call “the path”. You acknowledge that some fall off the path, and it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit and divine discipline which ultimately forces the disobedient to get back on the path. Let me ask you, is this “path” the same as the “race” of our Christian faith that Paul depicts throughout his letters? The same race we are admonished to finish and endure to the end in? Is it the same path in Mat 7:13-14—the narrow road that leads to life?

If so, here’s what I find contradictory: you’ve been adamant that we not separate the pieces (i.e. eternal life, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, relationship, etc.) as they all encompass the broad definition of “salvation”. Yet, if we can’t separate those pieces, then how is it we can make a distinction for those who fall off the path? In other words, if the "path that leads to life" is part of the broad definition of "salvation", then how can one "fall off the path" yet remain on that path?

It seems to me that there is only one path—the narrow path which leads to life, and that path is also the path that is pleasing to God. Either you are on the path or off of it. Otherwise are you proposing that there are two paths for believers? Again, I’m not talking about the believer that occasionally sins, but one whom the Bible warns will fall off because of deception, persecution or giving oneself over to sin (where sin replaces Christ as Lord).

Taken in context, Paul continues to provide warning and elaborates in verses 2 through 15. Paul concludes in verse 16 with:

“Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; preserve in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.”

So in verse 1 some fall away from the faith believing doctrines of demons. In verse 16 Paul exhorts Timothy to preserve in his teachings to ensure his salvation. In context the “faith” in verse 1 seems evident it’s referring to salvation—and to follow your rule, if we cannot separate salvation from the other elements, it must also be the “path” that leads to life—therefore those who fall off the path are no longer on the road to salvation. Do you see that?

If OSAS is doctrinally sound, then Paul’s statement in v.1 and v.16 is contradictory to that. If at conversion our salvation is eternally guaranteed, then Paul’s warnings of leaving the faith and preserving to ensure your salvation are inappropriate.

Or more likely, the “faith” is the singular path of a Christian—and Paul says some will fall off of it because they were deceived. They did not “preserve” on the path and such did not ensure their salvation.

Otherwise, if we assume that these whom Paul speaks of were never apart of the faith to begin with, then how does one “fall away” from something they were never apart of?

Colossians 2:18
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

The transliterated word is “katabrabeuvw”. It’s a compound meaning:

“defraud or beguile of the prize of victory”
“metaphor to deprive of salvation”.
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2603&v...)

You properly apply the “beguile” but exclude the target of that beguilement: the prize of victory/salvation.

What is the “prize” if not salvation?

”… Paul goes on in Col. 2:20-23 to explain that it is foolish to depart from the path and return to the ways of the world…”

Again, how does one depart from the path while still remaining on the path?

In my prior post I asked you to consider the plight of Judas and Peter. I’ll ask again, since I felt that this key fact was overlooked. Both men betrayed Christ. Both were deeply remorseful. Only Peter came back to Christ. You dismissed Judas’ judgment to hell due to a technicality that his death took place before Pentecost. I’m curious then, as to what criteria was he sentenced to hell for? If Judas went to hell, and Moses and Elijah did not—by what standard were they all judged? If all were judged under the Law, then all would have been condemned to hell because all had sinned. If they were judged under Christ’s blood, as I believe, then we can’t easily overlook Judas’ lack of repentance as a deciding factor in his eternal destination. And if we can't overlook his lack of repentance, then we can't diminish our responsibility and repentance in the relationship with God. I think the answer to Judas-Moses-Elijah would go a long ways in either reinforcing or diminishing our two views.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 21, 2009 at 12:50pm

Greetings Rob,

I recognize we approach this discussion from different perspectives.

You view “salvation” in a broad sense that encompasses all of the elements (eternal life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, relationship, etc.)—while I view salvation in a literal sense (meaning “saved from death” by the transfer of blame to Christ) as a literal gift to the believer in Christ.

What you call the broader sense I call the complete work of salvation which includes what you refer to as the literal sense, but not limited to only that.

You view our role in the relationship with God as passive, while I view it as essential.

I am not sure what gave you the idea that I view our part as passive, unless you mean we some how have a part in securing salvation (beyond surrendering to Jesus) or retaining it. We respond to our God in love. My life is a perpetual surrender to Him and ever seeking to deepen the relationship. I hunger for God and seek Him daily. My desire is to live to please Him moment by moment. I do not view these things as the cause of the relationship or the factors that are required to retain it. I view them as the natural response to that relationship. I will address going astray later where you question the “path.”

You view salvation as the prerequisite for relationship, starting with Pentecost—while I see relationship from the beginning, including Abraham, whom God called a friend; to King David, a man after God’s own heart; to scriptural evidence of salvation for Enoch, Elijah and Moses well before Pentecost. (I felt you ignored the appearances at the transfiguration in my last post.)

Not exactly. I view salvation as a prerequisite to the type of relationship that man can now have with God through Jesus in this dispensation that was not previously available. I do not deny that previous eras had relations with God. Those relations were different. One key change is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The permanence of the relationship for us, the church, is established in the relationship through the indwelling of us by His Spirit. God has dealt with the Jewish people differently. One assumption that people errantly make (not saying you) is believing that the church and Jews are the same. God will return to His direct work with the Jews once the church is removed. In the meantime Jews may come to salvation in the church age the same as a Gentile. God has set aside for a time that work and ushered in the time of the Gentiles until it comes to fulfillment. Then He will return to His plan for the Jews, which includes them believing in the Messiah, Jesus. This is a very deep subject and leads us off topic if I continue. The point is that God has established a covenant with the Jews. They have a special relationship with Him, but that relationship is not of the same nature as the churches today.

You view repentance as mainly a “change of mind “ for one who comes to the realization of who Jesus Christ is—while I view repentance as more than just an acknowledgment of who Christ is (see Luke 4:41) but also that of a repentant lifestyle: one who routinely confesses (1 John 1:9) and turns from their sin.

Again, what you assert I believe is not exactly what I believe. It is a change of mind that brings about a change in lifestyle. We are basically in agreement. I simply state that it starts with the change of mind. That precipitates the change in lifestyle. Also, we are a work in progress, maturing in our new life with Christ.

I think there is a fundamental difference between someone who routinely sins, confesses and repents versus someone who gives themselves entirely over to sin (when sin replaces Christ as Lord). I agree with you that the Holy Spirit convicts and God provides divine discipline. You seem to end it there, where I want to take it to the logical conclusion that those things are done to compel our free will into alignment.

We agree in part. There is a great difference between someone who sins (don’t like the term routinely), confesses and repents versus someone who gives themselves entirely over to sin. I end it there for I do not believe that a born-again believer can “give themselves over to sin.” This goes back to what I will address in relation to the path shortly.

In most of your responses to the verses I supplied, you routinely bring up what you call “the path”. You acknowledge that some fall off the path, and it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit and divine discipline which ultimately forces the disobedient to get back on the path. Let me ask you, is this “path” the same as the “race” of our Christian faith that Paul depicts throughout his letters? The same race we are admonished to finish and endure to the end in? Is it the same path in Mat 7:13-14—the narrow road that leads to life?

The path has several parts.
1) The path to salvation. The road is narrow …
2) The path of the believer. The will of God for your life as a saved believer.

#2 cannot be embarked on until one completes the first path. When one comes to the cross and through Jesus is saved they have entered into that salvation, including that relationship that involves us being filled with the Holy Spirit. Now we are ready to walk the path God has designed for us. On that path, meaning following His will for our lives, we have freewill. We may choose to ignore His will and in so doing are sinning. The relationship is not broken, salvation is not lost. The Father who loves us will not forsake us, but rather discipline us as necessary in order to restore us to His will for us in this life. Do not misread me here. This is not a legalistic predestined path without God giving us choices within the parameter of His will for us. Freewill and predestination are not an either or, but rather work hand in hand. That is another subject to follow up on someday.

If so, here’s what I find contradictory: you’ve been adamant that we not separate the pieces (i.e. eternal life, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, relationship, etc.) as they all encompass the broad definition of “salvation”. Yet, if we can’t separate those pieces, then how is it we can make a distinction for those who fall off the path? In other words, if the "path that leads to life" is part of the broad definition of "salvation", then how can one "fall off the path" yet remain on that path? It seems to me that there is only one path—the narrow path which leads to life, and that path is also the path that is pleasing to God. Either you are on the path or off of it. Otherwise are you proposing that there are two paths for believers? Again, I’m not talking about the believer that occasionally sins, but one whom the Bible warns will fall off because of deception, persecution or giving oneself over to sin (where sin replaces Christ as Lord).


Answered above, but will repeat, the path referred to here is His will for the child of God after salvation. The path to salvation is complete. For clarity I repeat, not two paths, but the extension of the one under different terms. To salvation and after salvation.

Taken in context, Paul continues to provide warning and elaborates in verses 2 through 15. Paul concludes in verse 16 with:

“Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; preserve in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.”

So in verse 1 some fall away from the faith believing doctrines of demons. In verse 16 Paul exhorts Timothy to preserve in his teachings to ensure his salvation. In context the “faith” in verse 1 seems evident it’s referring to salvation—and to follow your rule, if we cannot separate salvation from the other elements, it must also be the “path” that leads to life—therefore those who fall off the path are no longer on the road to salvation. Do you see that?

If OSAS is doctrinally sound, then Paul’s statement in v.1 and v.16 is contradictory to that. If at conversion our salvation is eternally guaranteed, then Paul’s warnings of leaving the faith and preserving to ensure your salvation are inappropriate.


sozo (4982), “to save,” is used (as with the noun soteria, “salvation”) (a) of material and temporal deliverance from danger, suffering, etc., e.g., Matt. 8:25; Mark 13:20; Luke 23:35; John 12:27; 1 Tim. 2:15; 2 Tim. 4:18 (KJV, “preserve”); Jude 5; from sickness, Matt. 9:22, “made … whole” (RV, marg., “saved”); so Mark 5:34; Luke 8:48; Jas. 5:15; (b) of the spiritual and eternal salvation granted immediately by God to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, e.g., Acts 2:47, RV “(those that) were being saved”; 16:31; Rom. 8:24, RV, “were we saved”; Eph. 2:5, 8; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5; of human agency in this, Rom. 11:14; 1 Cor. 7:16; 9:22; (c) of the present experiences of God’s power to deliver from the bondage of sin, e.g., Matt. 1:21; Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:2; Heb. 7:25; Jas. 1:21; 1 Pet. 3:21; of human agency in this, 1 Tim. 4:16; (d) of the future deliverance of believers at the second coming of Christ for His saints, being deliverance from the wrath of God to be executed upon the ungodly at the close of this age and from eternal doom, e.g., Rom. 5:9; (e) of the deliverance of the nation of Israel at the second advent of Christ, e.g., Rom. 11:26; (f) inclusively for all the blessings bestowed by God on men in Christ, e.g., Luke 19:10; John 10:9; 1 Cor. 10:33; 1 Tim. 1:15; (g) of those who endure to the end of the time of the Great Tribulation, Matt. 10:22; Mark 13:13; (h) of the individual believer, who, though losing his reward at the judgment seat of Christ hereafter, will not lose his salvation, 1 Cor. 3:15; 5:5; (i) of the deliverance of the nations at the Millennium, Rev. 21:24 (in some mss.).

The whole passage you refer to has to do with doctrinal purity and those who are led astray by false doctrine. Verses 1 and 16 are in agreement. If the teacher stays the course and adheres to sound doctrine the teacher and hearer are both saved from the error and the consequences of it. If the saved are led astray they have left the will of God for their life and will be disciplined if they remain in that path.

Or more likely, the “faith” is the singular path of a Christian—and Paul says some will fall off of it because they were deceived. They did not “preserve” on the path and such did not ensure their salvation. Otherwise, if we assume that these whom Paul speaks of were never apart of the faith to begin with, then how does one “fall away” from something they were never apart of?

Two points. 1) I have already distinguished what I mean by path and will not repeat it here. 2) The use of the word “sozo” does not infer salvation but being saved from error in this text. I hope you will take this in the heart it is intended – do a word search in Scripture and read the various uses in the Bible for the word “sozo.” (Mt. 8:25; Mt. 9:21-22; Mt. 14:30; Lk. 8:36; Jn. 12:27;

Colossians 2:18
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

The transliterated word is “katabrabeuvw”. It’s a compound meaning:

“defraud or beguile of the prize of victory”
“metaphor to deprive of salvation”.
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2603&v...)

You properly apply the “beguile” but exclude the target of that beguilement: the prize of victory/salvation.

What is the “prize” if not salvation?

BEGUILE (From Vines)
1. apatao (538), “to deceive,” is rendered “beguiled” in the RV of 1 Tim. 2:14. See No. 2.
2. exapatao (1818), a strengthened form of No. 1, is rendered “beguile,” 2 Cor. 11:3; the more adequate rendering would be “as the serpent thoroughly beguiled Eve.” So in 1 Tim. 2:14, in the best mss., this stronger form is used of Satan’s deception of Eve, lit., “thoroughly beguiled”; the simpler verb, No. 1, is used of Adam. In each of these passages the strengthened form is used. So of the influence of sin, Rom. 7:11 (RV, “beguile”); of self-deception, 1 Cor. 3:18 (RV, “deceive”); of evil men who cause divisions, Rom. 16:18 (RV, “beguile”); of deceitful teachers, 2 Thess. 2:3 (RV, “beguile”). See DECEIVE. In the Sept., Exod. 8:29.
3. paralogizomai (3884), lit. and primarily, “to reckon wrong,” hence means “to reason falsely” (para, “from, amiss,” logizomai, “to reason”) or “to deceive by false reasoning”; translated “delude” in Col. 2:4, RV (KJV, “beguile”) and Jas. 1:22 (KJV, “deceive”). See DECEIVE, DELUDE.
4. deleazo (1185) originally meant “to catch by a bait” (from delear, “a bait”); hence “to beguile, entice by blandishments”: in Jas. 1:14, “entice”; in 2 Pet. 2:14, KJV, “beguile”; in v. 18, KJV, “allure”; RV, “entice” in both. See ENTICE.
Note: In Col. 2:18, the verb katabrabeuo, “to give judgment against, condemn,” is translated “beguile … of your reward,” KJV; RV, “rob … of your prize.” The verb was used of an umpire’s decision against a racer; hence the translations (or paraphrases) in the Eng. versions.

1CO 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

1CO 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

The prize cannot be salvation. Can salvation of one’s soul be both a prize we win and gift that is given? That does not make sense. There are several crowns identified in Scripture. One that comes to mind is the “Crown of Righteousness” which Paul refers to in his second letter to Timothy and in the context of the prize being given for finishing the race.

2TI 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

”… Paul goes on in Col. 2:20-23 to explain that it is foolish to depart from the path and return to the ways of the world…”

Again, how does one depart from the path while still remaining on the path?

Path leading to salvation / will (path) of God after salvation.

In my prior post I asked you to consider the plight of Judas and Peter. I’ll ask again, since I felt that this key fact was overlooked. Both men betrayed Christ. Both were deeply remorseful. Only Peter came back to Christ. You dismissed Judas’ judgment to hell due to a technicality that his death took place before Pentecost. I’m curious then, as to what criteria was he sentenced to hell for? If Judas went to hell, and Moses and Elijah did not—by what standard were they all judged?

I did not overlook it. I respond to it with a basic answer. I will expand some here. Also, I would hardly call “Pentecost” a technicality. It is the event that ushered in the church era with power. Pentecost ushered in a new manner by which God has chosen to work in and with man. This being filled with the Holy Spirit is now part of the relationship that a believer has that was not a part of any previous dispensation. We are marked and secured for eternal life with Him and by Him. The dispensation that the O.T. saints were under is not the same as the one the church is under. The church and Israel are not the same. All dispensations point to Jesus.

Peter was not sealed until Pentecost. Judas never made it to Pentecost, in fact he did not even make it to the resurrection of Jesus. Feeling remorse is not the same as confession and repentance. What was the guilt that Judas felt? Peter’s confession and repentance is obvious and the acceptance by Christ is clear.

Let’s go a step further. Judas betrayed Christ. Peter denied Him. Peter succumbed to fear, but never disbelieved that Jesus was the Christ. Judas turned Him over to the Jews that sought His death and this betrayal was premeditated. Many speculate his motives, but we will never know for sure, other than he was chosen for this. God included Him for this very purpose. Not because God made Him do it, but because He knew that he would fulfill it.

If all were judged under the Law, then all would have been condemned to hell because all had sinned. If they were judged under Christ’s blood, as I believe, then we can’t easily overlook Judas’ lack of repentance as a deciding factor in his eternal destination. And if we can't overlook his lack of repentance, then we can't diminish our responsibility and repentance in the relationship with God. I think the answer to Judas-Moses-Elijah would go a long ways in either reinforcing or diminishing our two views.

We all are judged under the Law, for we are born under the Law even in the time of grace. People live under the Law until Jesus sacrifice is applied to your life. That is the reason for Jesus sacrifice. We could not pay the penalty for ourselves, only He could (I know you know this, but must include it to make my point). Freedom from condemnation comes through Jesus. The O.T. saints trusted in their relationship with God based upon His covenants with them as a nation, both literal nation and people group. They understood the need for sacrifice to cover sin and looked forward to the Messiah that would free them eternally. Many, like the Pharisees, perverted God’s Word which is so evident through the religious situation at the time of Jesus’ ministry. Why would Judas be lost and Moses and Elijah saved? It has to do with them meeting God’s requirement for salvation or not. We today have to meet God’s requirement to be saved or we will never come to salvation. What is the requirement today? Jesus provided everything and left the choice to receive Him up to us. He calls us, but we must accept. The difference for us today is the permanence of the relationship individually once entered into because of the Holy Spirit who seals us.

Moses and Elijah finished well, Judas did not. But their life cannot be applied as reason one in the church is or is not saved eternally.

There is a key point to make again: The church is not Israel and Israel is not the church. God’s plan for Israel and method of operation is not the same as His operation and provision for the church. When the church era ends, God will return to His work on the nation of Israel and will fulfill His promises and complete His work with them.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Fredric on January 22, 2009 at 12:05am

Thanks for your posting.Salvation is only once, what follows is the feeding of the word of the word of the Lord to keep us pure and holy in our daily walk.People stray in different ways either in words ,thoughts and actions.But we are reminded to always ask for forgiveness for un-willful sins since you may not know the hour.Remember stray occurs from what out thoughts have manufactured, keep your thoughts pure before they give birth to a physical sin.
Thanks.
fredric

Permalink Reply by Larry on January 22, 2009 at 5:38am

You're right ... one can't "lose" their salvation, but they can give it away by unbelief. 1 John 5:16, Rev 3:1-3.

Larry

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on January 26, 2009 at 8:58am

Good morning, Larry. John 10:29-30 tells why OSAS is truth. 1 John 5 needs to be read in total to understand the meaning of verse 16. Without that, it is taken out of context. In Rev 3:1-3 Christ is speaking to the angel(preacher) in the church. I am sure there are preachers who have never accepted Christ as their Savior, so this is not necessarily a person who has lost his salvation.He might never have beeen saved. I think Christ may be speaking against the way he was preaching. 2 Peter 1:20 talks about prophecy (scripture) not being of one's own private interpretation so that tells me that there are other verses that back up what is said and also that a particular verse will be intrepreted by numerous people, understanding the same thing.
Have a good day,
Rita

Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on January 26, 2009 at 11:47am

I have been following this thread because it's a question I've pondered many times. There are strong arguments for either side, as this thread certainly indicates. I'm sad to say that reading this thread has not helped in my quest for the true answer to the question. Once I think I know the answer, I go ahead and change my mind. I don't know how many times I've changed my mind from yes, we can to, no we can't. I also never believed that we can "lose" our salvation. The question is always, 'can we give it away effectively'? As I said, these are very intriguing arguments here, but they've caused me to change my mind on the issue too many times. Each presented argument was very influential to me. Now, I'm still confused and not sure if I have the ability to 'give up my salvation by failing to repent of my sins as I commit them', or not. I have risen the question to Jesus before; therefore, I will have to take it to him again.

I'd like to give my thanks for everyone's contributions here. It's been interesting to say the least.

In love and in Christ,
Ginnyb

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