Can we lose our Salvation?

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Permalink Reply by Rob Holden on January 10, 2009 at 3:04pm

>>Adoption in the time of Jesus was a complete removal of ones history. If you were a murderer or thief and were adopted into a family you lose your previous name and life and gain the new name and start fresh. What a great illustration for us a Christians.

That is a great illustration.

>>Our views differ. It is God’s work to keep us through the blood of Christ.
1TH 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

I agree.

>>Sin can hinder many things in the believer’s life. It can cause us to be disciplined (Heb. 12) it can cost us His blessings and can cause us to lose our usability, but does not cost us our position as family members.

I agree.

>>God’s covenant with the Jews is both conditional and unconditional. The Covenant with Abraham does not depend on Abraham, but on God. The Israelites failed repeatedly, yet never were they, nor are they today not God’s chosen. God disciplined them and restored them to their land, gave them freedom from oppression, etc, but not once did they ever cease to be His chosen people.

I agree.

But, if you are arguing that family members will never be separated isn’t scriptural.

Consider two of God’s chosen people (Jews) and chosen disciples: Peter and Judas. Both betrayed Christ. One is in heaven and one is in hell now. Both were prodigal sons, only one came back.

Just because you are apart of God’s family doesn’t mean you do not posses the capacity to divorce him.

>>You probably will not believe this, but I will state it anyway. My marriage does not require effort to sustain it. We made vows “till death do us part.” My marriage requires effort in order for it to be the best it can possibly be, not to keep it, but to enhance it.

I do not work to keep my relationship with God. I serve Him out of love with the desire for it to be the best it possibly can be. Sin can hinder the relationship, but never break it.

I understand, it’s not an effort because you do it out of love. I agree that is how our relationship with Christ is. There is an assurance and trust in the relationship, because of our love. Just as there are roles in marriage (provider, homemaker, etc.) there are also roles with our relationship with God (servant, healer, provider, follower, etc). However your marriage doesn’t restrict your capacity to cheat and divorce. The Bible warns that some who do enter into a marriage with Christ end up doing just that. Christ can’t force those to stay who divorce him.

>>God’s covenant with the Israelites has to be understood in order to apply this to their view. The church is not Israel. Even with that said there is a major change in the relationship:
COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel…

Did you catch this ‘conditional statement’?

>>…This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. :24 Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness-- 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Peter in Acts 2 is speaking to the Jews about their need for the Savior

AC 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. [Notice this:] And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

The relationship did not secure salvation, salvation secures the relationship.

It’s the deposit of the Holy Spirit which secures the relationship. (See Eph 1:13-14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22).

Here in Acts, Peter reviews the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth (vv.22-24) and then recited the prophecy of the Resurrection (vv.25-31), quoting Ps. 16:8-11. Since David was speaking of the Messiah (v.31) and since Jesus was raised from the dead (v.32), Peter argues: Jesus must be the Messiah—the Anointed One.

What Peter proposed, and the men accepted, was a Person—not eternal life.

Eternal life doesn’t secure the relationship, as all of creation will exist forever. It’s who you marry (Christ or sin) that matters where you will spend eternity. The didn't choose eternity, the chose Christ... do you see the difference?

“Salvation” has no power in and of itself, it is a descriptive title for the work Christ did to give man the capacity to escape the consequences of sin so that we may continue to have relationship with God for eternity.

If “salvation” is the bond that secures relationship—then what salvation do the angels Gabriel or Michael posses so that they may have a secure relationship with God?

>>I preach that salvation is not our goal. I preach that heaven is not our goal. Our goal is the Father Himself.

Amen!

>>Salvation and relationship are impossible without belief or repentance.

You are distorting “salvation’s” place in relationship with with others in this statement.

“Salvation is a ‘gift’ of that relationship my friend. When you elevate the gift to being equal to the giver, that’s when you cease preaching: “Father Himself”.

Let’s define “salvation”: Salvation is the mechanism to extend our relationship through eternity.

>>You believe that one can stop believing. I believe that once that true knowledge is internalized that it cannot cease to ever be true to you. I cannot UN-believe that which the Holy Spirit has revealed and I embraced at salvation.

Lucifer had a relationship with God (Ez 28)
He was full of wisdom (v.12)
God promoted him to be the anointed cherub (v.14)
He was placed on the Holy Mountain of God (v.14)
He was found blameless in all his ways (v.15)

Yet Lucifer, despite direct access to God in Heaven, and internalized knowledge—divorced God. So did 1/3 of the angels.

Internalized knowledge is no guarantee one will always act on that knowledge.

>>Regarding repentance, too often this word is wrongly defined. Repentance in the Greek does not simply mean turning from sin and turning to God. It literally means a “Change of mind.” At salvation my belief was secured and my mind was changed. I cannot undo this. I can choose to be disobedient, but that does not change my faith, nor does it change my mind, for even in sin we are convicted by the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11).

I agree. Peter instructed the men to Repent—to change their mind about Christ—to be convinced he was the Messiah. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is worthless if we do not act on that conviction.

The Bible warns us against deception, because it can change our mind. The Bible also warns us to stand firm until the end, because suffering and persecution can change our mind. The pleasure of sin, when one gives over to it completely and suppresses the conviction of the Holy Spirit—can change our mind.

>>The rest of my life is not working to keep that which I cannot lose, but rather to please the One Who loves me, my Father in heaven. The motivation to live the Christian life is love, not fear of losing our position.

Exactly. I don’t stay married because I fear I will lose it.

>>Let me ask a question. Are you a child of God today?

Yes.

>>If salvation is future and 2 Cor. 5:17 is future then what has changed that would enable you to be called a child of God?

My position does not merit 2 Cor. 5:17 to be considered future. Salvation—the gift of eternal life—does not make one a child of God. Accepting the Person of Christ does—and only then is the gift applicable.

I don’t ask sinners to accept “Salvation” into their hearts. I ask them to accept Christ.

I don’t preach to the lost: “you are sinners change your ways”… I preach: “there is a God and He loves you”… because if you don’t believe there is a God, then you can’t be concerned about sinning against something you don’t believe in.

One must first accept the premise that there is a God before they accept the premise they need to be forgiven of their sins against God. One must first accept that they want to be in a relationship with God before one commits their lives to Him.

Do we only love God because he saved us from sin? Would we have no reason to love God if Adam and Eve never fell?

Christ is the gift to those who love God. Eternal life with God is the gift to those who believe in Christ.

>>For no one is a child of God until they accept Christ. All are created in His image, but are not children of God. If this conversion of 2 Cor. 5:17 has occurred, then how can one be a child of God and then not a child of God only to be a child of God again. Even Israel did not go through such loss of position, but rather through divine discipline, for remnant was always preserved.

So you admit that some of Israel was not preserved?


LT, before I continue answering the rest of your comments… have my comments shed any clarity on what I am arguing?



In Christ,

Rob

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 10, 2009 at 3:33pm

Rob,

I understand your position and have studied it quitre a bit. You have a slight different take than most who hold to your view. I realize that in the end of the day we will most likely have discussed this and you and I will still believe as we currently do and will end up agreeing to disagree. For we are able to walk together in Christ because we love the same Lord, but have a differnet view on this subject.

There is no doubt that relationship is at the center of our Christian life. The question still remains can we lose our eternal position or not. Please continue and I will attempt to respond accordingly.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 10, 2009 at 6:24pm

Rob,

Consider two of God’s chosen people (Jews) and chosen disciples: Peter and Judas. Both betrayed Christ. One is in heaven and one is in hell now. Both were prodigal sons, only one came back.

Just because you are apart of God’s family doesn’t mean you do not posses the capacity to divorce him.

Both of these men are examples of people prior to Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit and thus prior to conversion. They are not indwelt by the Spirit of God nor sealed by him at the time of their failures.

. The Bible warns that some who do enter into a marriage with Christ end up doing just that. Christ can’t force those to stay who divorce him.

What example do we have a true believer divorcing himself from Jesus? That would require something along the following lines: I know you are God, I know you died on the cross for me. I have experienced you in my life. I know that I am indwelt with the Holy Spirit. I know that without you I deserve hell. I give all that up. Take away the Holy Spirit. Cease to cover me by Your blood. I do not want You any longer. Can someone who has tasted that the Lord is good walk away? I don’t see it Scripturally, nor can I understand how one could.

23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel…

Did you catch this ‘conditional statement’?

You read it as a condition and I see it as affirmation to the one found in faith.

It’s the deposit of the Holy Spirit which secures the relationship. (See Eph 1:13-14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22).

Does this mean that you believe that the relationship is secure?

Regarding salvation securing the relationship, it opens the door to the relationship that God intends for man. It should have been worded differently by me. Prior to conversion the attainable relationship is not eternal life, which when one understands eternal life, it is all about connected relationship with Jesus. We are the partakers of His life at conversion. The eternal life we experience is His, in Him and through Him.

You are distorting “salvation’s” place in relationship with with others in this statement.

“Salvation is a ‘gift’ of that relationship my friend. When you elevate the gift to being equal to the giver, that’s when you cease preaching: “Father Himself”.

Let’s define “salvation”: Salvation is the mechanism to extend our relationship through eternity.

I am sorry, but the distortion is on your part. You miss an important part of the relationship. It changes at conversion. We were of the world and now we are called children of God. Jesus extends this gift through His sacrifice. This gift opens the door to the relationship that God intends and is not accessible to man before his conversion, what often times is called salvation by the Word of God.

Lucifer had a relationship with God (Ez 28)
He was full of wisdom (v.12)
God promoted him to be the anointed cherub (v.14)
He was placed on the Holy Mountain of God (v.14)
He was found blameless in all his ways (v.15)

Yet Lucifer, despite direct access to God in Heaven, and internalized knowledge—divorced God. So did 1/3 of the angels.

We are talking about losing our salvation. Satan stepped away from God. Adam stepped away from God. Only man has been offered salvation, restoration of relationship. This restoration happens at conversion and is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

HEB 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

I agree. Peter instructed the men to Repent—to change their mind about Christ—to be convinced he was the Messiah. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is worthless if we do not act on that conviction.

One who is converted cannot help but react to the Holy Spirit. He lives within us. He does not force Himself on us, but enables us as we seek to live for Christ. When one waivers and falls into sin, they will experience conviction by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible warns us against deception, because it can change our mind. The Bible also warns us to stand firm until the end, because suffering and persecution can change our mind. The pleasure of sin, when one gives over to it completely and suppresses the conviction of the Holy Spirit—can change our mind.

The mind is the battle field where the greatest war any man will ever face is waged. The conversion takes place in the spirit and affects the mind. The unchanged flesh wars against our spirit for the rest of our lives (Rom. 5-8).

My position does not merit 2 Cor. 5:17 to be considered future. Salvation—the gift of eternal life—does not make one a child of God. Accepting the Person of Christ does—and only then is the gift applicable.

Salvation is the process and the word God chose to illustrate the process of becoming saved in Christ and through Christ as salvation. The process has both an initial (at conversion) and future fulfillment (resurrection).

1PE 1:9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

1PE 2:2-3 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

JUDE 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

2CO 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

I don’t preach to the lost: “you are sinners change your ways”… I preach: “there is a God and He loves you”… because if you don’t believe there is a God, then you can’t be concerned about sinning against something you don’t believe in.

One must first accept the premise that there is a God before they accept the premise they need to be forgiven of their sins against God. One must first accept that they want to be in a relationship with God before one commits their lives to Him.

I agree and am not sure why you feel the need to point this out. I have given you no cause to think I think any less.

Do we only love God because he saved us from sin? Would we have no reason to love God if Adam and Eve never fell?

I love God not because of what He has done, but because of who He is. I am thankful for what He has done and continues to do.

Christ is the gift to those who love God. Eternal life with God is the gift to those who believe in Christ.

Please elaborate on this. I do not get you at all. How can you separate love and belief and distinguish between what you receive based on which is operating in you. I can love God and receive Christ, but not have faith and therefore am not saved?

So you admit that some of Israel was not preserved?

She was only a shadow of her former self at different times in history. God’s plan for Israel is not yet fulfilled. With that said, even Israel must have faith in the Messiah (Jesus) for personal salvation, for salvation is found in no other name.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on January 10, 2009 at 7:27pm

Well said, LT. John 10:25-30 If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Jn 10:24-30). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
The Lord Bless you,
Rita

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 11, 2009 at 4:37pm

Rita,

Great verses and amen.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Sarah78 on January 11, 2009 at 5:08pm

AMEN!!!

Permalink Reply by Rob Holden on January 11, 2009 at 6:55pm

TL,

“Both of these men are examples of people prior to Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit and thus prior to conversion. They are not indwelt by the Spirit of God nor sealed by him at the time of their failures.”

Although the crucifixion and resurrection happened at a fixed time on earth, God’s redemption is not bound by Created dimensions and therefore the redemption covered all sin: past, present and future.

If they weren’t converted before Pentecost then I don’t know why John was baptizing, let alone the disciples (John 4:2)? Not sure how the 12 were casting out demons without being sealed and having the indwelling of the Spirit. Following your reasoning above, Christ could not have offered salvation to the thief on the cross.

It is belief in Christ by which we are sealed (John 3:33). The deposit of the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of it.

While the gift of the Holy Spirit is perpetually indwelling to all who believe and received, there is no denying the Holy Spirit at work in pre-Pentecost times. Otherwise we would have no OT prophecy or scripture.

Some examples:
Bazalel Ex 31:3
Eldad & Medad Num 11:26
Gideon Jud 6:34
Jephthah Jud 11:29
Sampson Jud 14:6,9,15:14
Samuel 1 Sam 10:6

Moses imparted the Spirit to Joshua by the laying on of hands (Deut 34:9)

Elizabeth (Luke 1:41)

Zechariah (Luke 1:67)

Simeon (Luke 2:25)

And don't forget Mary.

The appearance of Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration reinforce that Christ’s redemption allowed them to experience salvation prior to the Cross. God is not bound by our dimension of time.

Now let’s consider the life of Judas:

From out of the disciples, Christ appointed him an apostle (Luke 6:13), and gave him authority to drive out evil spirits, heal every disease and sickness (Mat 10:1) and to baptize (John 4:2). [I submit the apostles were incapable of carrying out their ministry without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit] Peter says Judas was one of them and shared in the ministry (Acts 1:17). Jesus himself called Judas a friend (Matthew 26:50). Judas, like all of us, struggled with the flesh. His weakness was greed (John 12:6). The temptation of greed turned into actionable sin when he negotiated with the Pharisees (Luke 22:2-5, Mat. 26:14-15). Despite Christ’s warnings of betrayal and denial to both Judas and Peter at supper in the upper room, Judas gave over to his temptation and left afterward to arrange Christ’s handover.

Judas traded Christ for silver coins—which put Him on the cross. Likewise our sins also put Jesus on the cross. The silver is symbolic for our sin, in that we trade Christ for it.

Despite his personal relationship with Christ—and the authority and empowerment given to him by Christ—Judas had the capacity to give in completely to sin and abandon Christ.

After temptation became sin in the culminated act of betraying Christ that evening—Judas was remorseful (Mat 27:3), and recognized he had sinned (Mat 27:4). He even tried to undo the act by returning the money (Mat. 27:3). Trying to undo the act doesn’t bring forgiveness of sin though—only going back to Christ in repentance does.

That was the difference between Peter and Judas. Peter desperately went back to the Lord (John 21:7). Judas did not, and continued to try and take matters into his own hands. Judas wasn’t sentenced to Hell on a technicality that he died before Pentecost, because Christ was already forgiving sins! Judas walked away from Christ and never came back.

What example do we have a true believer divorcing himself from Jesus? That would require something along the following lines: I know you are God, I know you died on the cross for me. I have experienced you in my life. I know that I am indwelt with the Holy Spirit. I know that without you I deserve hell. I give all that up. Take away the Holy Spirit. Cease to cover me by Your blood. I do not want You any longer. Can someone who has tasted that the Lord is good walk away? I don’t see it Scripturally, nor can I understand how one could.

I maintain Judas is one example.

I submit Ananias and Sapharra are another:

They were apart of the congregation of believers whom the scriptures describe as having “one heart” and “one soul” (Acts 4:32). They were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 4:31). Following Barnabas’ example (Acts 4:36-37) they sold their land to give to the Apostles. What is interesting to note, is that despite having been filled with the ithe Holy Spirit, they were still able to lie and test the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:9). Peter acknowledges Ananias had exercised his own free will in the matter (Acts 5:4). The Holy Spirit doesn’t prevent us from sinning. Their actions were so grievous that God took their life right then and there.

Do you not know of anyone who was but is now not serving the Lord? If they were to die in that condition without bringing themselves back to Christ in repentance are you confidence of their eternal destination?

I know of several former believers and followers who are currently not serving the Lord.

It’s easy for us, who exercise the tools and gifts [some include: not forsaking the fellowship of believers, readers and doers of the Word, sensitive to the convictions and promptings of the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of tongues and praying in tongues, confessing our sins, prayer, worship, etc.]—these are all for the strengthening of the saints—to not see a path that we would ever walk away from Christ.

But it’s not the strong I’m concerned about. It’s those who, for whatever reason, start skipping church service. They stop reading the Bible. Their prayer life begins to fade. Despite the convictions of the spirit, they slide back into old sinful habits. Without applying the tools and gifts we become weak, and that’s when we are must vulnerable to the enemy’s attack.

It’s the former womanizer who got saved and now loves his wife, kids and the Lord. He prays with his family at dinner and reads his Bible every night before bed. He is the backup bass player in the worship band. But he continues to struggles with pornography. A six month project at work takes up all his time. He gets home too late to have dinner and prayer time with the kids. He’s too tired at night to pray and read the Bible. He gets caught up on sleep by missing church Sundays—his only day off. His Bible collects dust. Still struggling with lust, he gives into temptation and turns to inappropriate websites at work instead of Christ to help offset the monotony. He feels the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and knows its wrong, closes the website and feels bad. The next day he does it again and over time he continues to suppress the Spirit’s conviction. Four months of 60+ hour work weeks and he is losing the battle to porn and has started going out with the guys after work to the local pub for a quick beer before heading home. After a few weeks he’s developed a lustful attraction to the flirtatious bartender who doesn’t withhold sharing her interest. The weakness of lust has culminated into an actionable opportunity to cheat on his wife—for which in his weakness he succumbs. He mentally knows what he did was wrong, but he’s suppressed the Spirit for so long that any conviction left is overshadowed by the thrill and excitement of the act. His old ways—womanizing resurface. He’s suppressed the conviction of the Spirit for so long, that either he can’t recognize the Spirit anymore or the Spirit has left him.

He later divorces his wife and cheats around until he moves in with another woman. He hasn’t attended church in years and has taken up drinking full time. It’s confident to conclude his heart and mind are on the pleasures of this world and not on Christ any longer.

These are the people I’m concerned about, because I know them, including former pastors who have fallen.

I say unless they come back to Christ, and if they die in that condition of serving self, then I’d be concerned about their eternal destination. While others say they remain saved or were never saved to begin with.

Does this mean that you believe that the relationship is secure?

The deposit of the Holy Spirit is the evidence of our salvation. However the Holy Spirit doesn’t override our free will. As long as we have the Spirit, our relationship is secure.

One who is converted cannot help but react to the Holy Spirit. He lives within us. He does not force Himself on us, but enables us as we seek to live for Christ. When one waivers and falls into sin, they will experience conviction by the Holy Spirit.

This is circular reasoning: if one has already wavered and fallen into sin, then they already have ignored the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

If we can suppressed the Spirit to sin, then we can just as easily suppress it again to sin again. The Spirit convicts us to bring repentance out of us.

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Repentance is when we change our mind, not when the Spirit convicts us.

I agree and am not sure why you feel the need to point this out. I have given you no cause to think I think any less.

I only bring it up because your position is that we can lose salvation--the gift of eternal life with God. My position is that we can lose God.

”Christ is the gift to those who love God. Eternal life with God is the gift to those who believe in Christ."

Please elaborate on this. I do not get you at all. How can you separate love and belief and distinguish between what you receive based on which is operating in you. I can love God and receive Christ, but not have faith and therefore am not saved?

The Jews already believed in God, but they did not have Christ. God gave us Christ—the Messiah, in whom is the final sacrifice. The Jews had to believe Christ as the Son of God for their sins to be covered under his sacrifice. The gift of Christ is that his work provided the means by which we have eternal life—by the transferring of guilt to Him.

Many of the verses, of which you attempt to use, are not related to salvation, but rather living the Christian life. The ones that do relate or appear to relate to salvation are being used out of context

At least for me, if this letter doesn’t make any headway, I think the next step would be to examine the verses I supplied. I would be interested in your interpretation of them. I supplied a bunch, so I’ve narrowed the list down to these:

1 Timothy 4:1
Colossians 2:8
2 Peter 3:17
Colossians 2:18
Hebrews 2:1
1 Timothy 6:20-21
2 Corinthians 11
1 Timothy 1:18-20
Hebrews 10: 26-27
2 Peter 2:20-21
Matthew 24:10-13
Revelation 3:11-12
Heb. 3:12
2 Thes. 2:3

When you have the time, no rush.

I would be particularly interested in if we can’t be deceived, why all the warnings? Or, do you believe if we become deceived (say a Christian joins the Mormon Church or becomes Muslim) we remain saved?

Rita

I agree, no one can snatch us from God. The question is can we walk away from Him?



In Christ,

Rob

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 11, 2009 at 8:45pm

Although the crucifixion and resurrection happened at a fixed time on earth, God’s redemption is not bound by Created dimensions and therefore the redemption covered all sin: past, present and future.

The issue in our discussion is not the covering by the blood of Christ, but rather the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to “INDWELL BELIEVERS.” The Holy Spirit’s presence on earth and activity are not in question either. It is the change in the relationship that took place only after the cross, again the indwelling and permanence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life.

While the gift of the Holy Spirit is perpetually indwelling to all who believe and received, there is no denying the Holy Spirit at work in pre-Pentecost times. Otherwise we would have no OT prophecy or scripture.

Change in relationship and operation from before the cross to after. The question is not did the Holy Spirit operate, but how.

Based on the difference in relationship and operation the Judas comment is null and void.

I submit Ananias and Sapharra are another:

They were never identified as born again believers. Many get involved in the church but never come to Christ. There is no evidence of relationship given.

Do you not know of anyone who was but is now not serving the Lord? If they were to die in that condition without bringing themselves back to Christ in repentance are you confidence of their eternal destination?

I know of many who appear to have served the Lord and fallen into sin. There are two possibilities. 1) They never were born again and therefore never developed a relationship with Jesus that is enabled through salvation. 2) They are born again and will experience divine discipline (Heb. 12). You believe they become lost and destined to hell. I do not. This is the center of our discussion once again.

But it’s not the strong I’m concerned about. It’s those who, for whatever reason, start skipping church service. They stop reading the Bible. Their prayer life begins to fade. Despite the convictions of the spirit, they slide back into old sinful habits. Without applying the tools and gifts we become weak, and that’s when we are must vulnerable to the enemy’s attack.

These are the people I’m concerned about, because I know them, including former pastors who have fallen.

I say unless they come back to Christ, and if they die in that condition of serving self, then I’d be concerned about their eternal destination. While others say they remain saved or were never saved to begin with.

As if my concern is not for them as well. The difference in our concern is that you think they are lost. I see them as losing the usability for Christ and will experience the discipline of God if they continue in sin for any length of time.

You put the retention of salvation, which you call relationship (I cannot separate the two as you try to do) on the works of man. I lay it all on the staying power of God to keep that which I entrusted to Him forever. I cannot un-entrust. I cannot un-believe. I cannot become an un-child of God.

The deposit of the Holy Spirit is the evidence of our salvation. However the Holy Spirit doesn’t override our free will. As long as we have the Spirit, our relationship is secure.

We are going in circles. You believe we can lose the presence of the Holy Spirit and I do not. We are freewill beings, and even in that understanding freewill has limitations. Technically we have liberties. God does not force us, nor will He ever leave us. The Holy Spirit brings conviction during times of rebellion.

This is circular reasoning: if one has already wavered and fallen into sin, then they already have ignored the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

If we can suppressed the Spirit to sin, then we can just as easily suppress it again to sin again. The Spirit convicts us to bring repentance out of us.

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Repentance is when we change our mind, not when the Spirit convicts us.

The conviction experienced by the Holy Spirit is not a once and done event. Man is free to choose, that is the liberty given man. God’s Spirit does not ignore the sin, nor does He release the man. If the man chooses to ignore the conviction then divine discipline comes into play.

Brother, I know with certainty that you will sin again. What covering do you have? You and I will sin in thought or deed again and thus ignore the prompting of God’s Spirit, if but only for a brief moment. Are you preaching an attainable holiness in the flesh in this life? If you are we have even greater issues here than just the loss of salvation.

2 Corinthians 7 is viewed by you as a perpetual event. Gain relationship, lose relationship, only to gain relationship again. I see it as the repentance that leads to salvation that could not be lost. The repentance after salvation is not unto salvation again, but restoration to usability.

Where do you think true repentance comes from, meaning what initiates true repentance? Is it you or God’s Spirit working on the unbeliever leading them to salvation or in the life of a believer regarding sin?

I only bring it up because your position is that we can lose salvation--the gift of eternal life with God. My position is that we can lose God.

I do not believe we can lose our salvation or the relationship once one has been saved. That has been the thrust of this whole discussion. You try to separate two things that cannot be separated. Our relationship with God as a child of God and salvation are inseparable.

The Jews already believed in God, but they did not have Christ. God gave us Christ—the Messiah, in whom is the final sacrifice. The Jews had to believe Christ as the Son of God for their sins to be covered under his sacrifice. The gift of Christ is that his work provided the means by which we have eternal life—by the transferring of guilt to Him.

I find this circular on your part as well. Did Judas believe or not believe in the sacrifice of Jesus? Can you be sure? You go out of your way not to use the word salvation, which the Bible freely uses to describe what you have just laid out.

One cannot believe in Jesus and have salvation and not love Him. The love and belief that brings salvation are inseparable.

I would be particularly interested in if we can’t be deceived, why all the warnings? Or, do you believe if we become deceived (say a Christian joins the Mormon Church or becomes Muslim) we remain saved?

Whoever said one cannot be led astray or fooled. I believe one may be for a season. If a born again person is led astray they will experience conviction and divine discipline. The key revolves around whether one is born again.

I am not ignoring the verses. I will address them. Remember I said that many did not apply and the rest were out of context. I will address them accordingly …. soon.

I will address the verses and probably be done. We are going in circles.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Rob Holden on January 12, 2009 at 2:34pm

My friend TL,

My biggest hang-up between our two views is free will. Help me understand this if you desire, because I would like to be confident in either of our views, and I am not.

I see a pattern to how God works: He creates to have relationship. First he created the Seraphim and Cherubim, and gave them free will. Down the road, some chose to walk away, while others remained. Next he created mankind, and despite the lessons of the angels, he also gave them free will, and ensured they could exercise it by providing the fruit in the tree.

If God never intended for mankind to fall, then today we would remain on Earth with the full capacity of free will—with the fruit still on the tree.

Thus, I view salvation as the undeserved second chance that God allowed for the relationship to be reconciled to bring us back to what He intended from the beginning—the state of Adam & Eve before the fall—with full capacity of free will.

The OSAS position hinges on the notion that those who become saved are then incapable of exercising any further free will to walk away—which seems contrary to every pattern we’ve seen with God’s creation. OSAS says it is “God who convicts, God who forgives, God who disciplines…” but never acknowledging that He does so to bring our free will into obedience. If we don’t have free will to exercise, then I see no point in divine discipline. Is it not only when we exercise our free will into conformity that the discipline ends?

Isn’t is true then, that what separates the saved and the unsaved, is the exercise of free will by those who either choose or reject Christ? In order to accept Christ did not one have to exercise their free will to do so?

If the Holy Spirit, once deposited, truly prevents Creation from ever walking away again—limiting free will—then it seems to me that God could have deposited the Spirit from the beginning and avoided this whole fiasco in the first place. But He didn’t, and that begs the question… why not? Could it be because the deposit of the Holy Spirit is there to be the “Helper” and not the “Enforcer”?

Likewise, when this whole thing blows over, and we come full circle again in our perfect state, with new bodies and a new Earth—will we continue to remain under the covering of the Holy Spirit or be beings with the capacity to exercise free will again?

If you can help me understand this road-block, then that would go along ways in reconciling our two views.

Your brother,

Rob

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 12, 2009 at 4:00pm

Greetings Rob,

My biggest hang-up between our two views is free will. Help me understand this if you desire, because I would like to be confident in either of our views, and I am not.

I see a pattern to how God works: He creates to have relationship. First he created the Seraphim and Cherubim, and gave them free will. Down the road, some chose to walk away, while others remained. Next he created mankind, and despite the lessons of the angels, he also gave them free will, and ensured they could exercise it by providing the fruit in the tree.

Keep in mind that though God created all things, including beings, He did not create them the same. Angels and man are different and operate differently. Angels are created as God’s ministering servants with various operations and even types. One-third fell with Satan and there is no salvation offered them Hell has been prepared for them and there is no changing that outcome. Man was created in his image to have fellowship with Him. I truly believe that we are created to become His family. God recognizes that freewill does not assure obedience and love is not possible without it. Man was created by God with freewill with the full knowledge that man would fall. God did not wait for the earth to be fully populated and then deal with us on a case by case scenario. Adam and Eve fell and judgment came upon “mankind.” We are born into that sin and incapable of living for Him or relationally knowing Him in the fallen state. Thus, He provided the cross. Why? To bring man into a relationship that he could lose over and over again that is dependant upon his ability? Or is there a greater purpose? We learn to love Jesus as we are lead to Him and find salvation. Love is, if you will, the jell that brings this together. God loves us and we are not capable of loving Him for Who He is in the fallen state. In that change we become “Children of God,” no longer fallen, but family members.

“How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” 1 John 3:1-2

I will use a human argument at this point. I am a father of three. I had a wayward child. I will not go into details, but suffice it was not a good situation. I disciplined my child. I let my child go far away only to one day return. I never condoned my child’s action, but my child was not ever the child of “LT.” I would have rushed to their rescue. I would have died for them to save them. I am only a human father. God is our heavenly Father. How could I respect God (caution here on my part) who chooses to call Himself “our Father” if He was capable of disowning His children? If He wanted to wait to call us His children until after death or His second coming based on obedience that would be one thing, but He did not. He calls us His children now. I fully lean on and trust in the “Father’s” love for me. If I trusted in my obedience I would be doomed, not trying to be humorous, but I will sin again. What if I sin and die before I repent? I realize, or believe, that you mean loss of relationship relates to a continuation in sin and not a single sin, but there are those who live on the one sin edge in fear.

Let me take this one step further. In the creation of man we were created in His image. What this means is debatable. God is spirit and man was created in the flesh. Does it only mean spiritually? We see that in the garden that Adam walked with God. We do not see God removing His Spirit from them. He breathed the breath of life in them, but were they indwelt with His Spirit like we are today? If so, where was the conviction at the tree when Eve spoke to the serpent? Nothing is recorded. That does not mean He was not there or active, but the Scripture is silent on the issue. At conversion I read the Scripture to say that we are spiritually changed (2 Co. 5:17) and are now indwelt with the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 1:22). Let’s take this a little further. In John 3:16 we see that Jesus is the only “begotten” son. The word “begotten” in the Greek carries the depth of meaning to mean exactly that of the Father. Their DNA is identical. He is not an off-shoot or half God and half man (Mary genes). Just further evidence that He is God. This is significant for we at conversion partake of His life. He becomes one with us and us with Him spiritually. My house is not just swept clean, but we begin to take on the character of Jesus and begin to experience his presence, relationally. I am not teaching we are little gods, but rather partakers of the nature of God through Jesus. We are we are grafted in to the vine, the Christ life.

"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" Gal. 2:17-21 NIV

Why did God do all this? What is His ultimate purpose? God, in my opinion, wanted a family and that family must come to Him in love and through love. His love for us and our love developed in us by Him for Him. Love has to come of freewill for it to be love. Love keeps us, not obedience. We cannot unlearn and un-love once we have been converted and receive the new nature.

If God never intended for mankind to fall, then today we would remain on Earth with the full capacity of free will—with the fruit still on the tree.

I am not sure God intended it, but was fully aware that it was going to happen. For without it our love could not be the love that comes through freewill. My wayward child loves me today and that love comes through that child’s freewill. God’s love, agape, wrought in us is not a feeling, but a state of being after conversion. The “Fruit of the Spirit” are not actions. Action occurs when we grow in each of those areas. We can only grow in those areas because we have been changed spiritually. Love is a state of being. Joy is a state of being, etc…

Thus, I view salvation as the undeserved second chance that God allowed for the relationship to be reconciled to bring us back to what He intended from the beginning—the state of Adam & Eve before the fall—with full capacity of free will.

I agree, but I think we are being led to a better relationship than the one Adam had. Think about just two differences. God came down and walked with Adam. After the renewal of all things we will be perpetually in His presence and even now indwelt by His Spirit. Adam experienced night and day. After the renewal there will be no night, for God is our perpetual light (Rev. 21:23-25).

The OSAS position hinges on the notion that those who become saved are then incapable of exercising any further free will to walk away—which seems contrary to every pattern we’ve seen with God’s creation. OSAS says it is “God who convicts, God who forgives, God who disciplines…” but never acknowledging that He does so to bring our free will into obedience. If we don’t have free will to exercise, then I see no point in divine discipline. Is it not only when we exercise our free will into conformity that the discipline ends?

We have certain liberties. I can choose how to live my life after conversion, but with ramifications. These do not include loss of position as a son who is guaranteed an inheritance including eternal life. The discipline is for our good. God does want to be worshipped and loved by us today, but He also has given us a commission. There are lost people that need the gospel message. We are His ambassadors, His witnesses. How can we represent Him if we are walking in rebellion? In my child’s rebellion I loved my child, but was ashamed of their actions and lifestyle. I would not have wanted them representing my family name in that condition, but that child was always loved by me and was always my child.

Isn’t is true then, that what separates the saved and the unsaved, is the exercise of free will by those who either choose or reject Christ? In order to accept Christ did not one have to exercise their free will to do so?

What separates us is the blood and work of Christ. He provided everything and offers it freely. I must come to a point of surrendering to Him. I refrain, most of the times, from using the term accept. I view it more as we come to the realization as to Who Jesus is, the Father draws us to Him. I begin to see the Father, the Son begins to reveal Him and then the Holy Spirit convicts (convinces) me of the truth regarding God and my sinful condition. The path of salvation is revealed and I surrender myself into His hands. It is a surrender wrought by love. I see it as His love for me and my love that begins to return to him.

If the Holy Spirit, once deposited, truly prevents Creation from ever walking away again—limiting free will—then it seems to me that God could have deposited the Spirit from the beginning and avoided this whole fiasco in the first place. But He didn’t, and that begs the question… why not? Could it be because the deposit of the Holy Spirit is there to be the “Helper” and not the “Enforcer”?

I view the whole purpose revolving around love and God receiving a family unto Himself. Writing this excites me so, for I love him so. God is so great and I can scarcely fathom that great love for me, us. God we are so undeserving, yet You love us and have provided salvation for us that we may become Your children.

Likewise, when this whole thing blows over, and we come full circle again in our perfect state, with new bodies and a new Earth—will we continue to remain under the covering of the Holy Spirit or be beings with the capacity to exercise free will again?

I believe that both will be actively true. We will have freewill and be united to God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and to each other by the Holy Spirit indwelling us, for we become one with God as Christ is one with the Father (Jn. 17:11-12). Unlike now there will be nothing to draw us away or lead us astray. The tree will not be present and our sinful flesh that wars against us will be gone. You may say what drew Satan away? He never experienced what it was like to have lived in sin and we have. I know what I have been saved from and to Whom I have been saved. I know the One I freely love and Who loves me completely.

Hope that helps some. Also, I am working on the verses you listed and will post them soon.

Your Brother in Christ,
LT

Permalink Reply by Carlo on January 13, 2009 at 5:51am

Sarah, it would seem that your question unearthed a debate of note. My question to you and everybody else who took part and especially to LT and Ron is: What does it really matter, you're saved right, you have no plans to be un-saved, so why should this bother us so much?
I understand you posted the question as a matter of interest, and I don't critisize you, but I think that a lot of time and energy was wasted on something silly. What does it matter, personaly I think that if you stop praying, stop reading Gods word, give yourself over to a life of sin, never maintain the relationship, then you have never really been saved. If you were saved, you might stray, but you will be aware of your connection with God every day.

So, after this massive debate and over-indulgent quoting of scripture, it would seem that both LT and Ron is right.

And to answer your question in laymans terms, no, once a person accepts Christ, he might stray, but will never turn away from Christ, thus will not be denied eternity.

A person who completely denounces Christ, have never really been saved.

Now this will really confuse you, and hopefully LT and Ron will have an answer for me [I'm not being sarcastic, you guys really seem clued-up about the word of God]..............

What happens to a saved born-again Christian, who, in a moment of weaknes, commits sinfull acts, then dies before repenting, or say, Christ returns to earth, and you (a saved, born-again Christian) are sitting in a stripclub, with some work colleagues?

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 13, 2009 at 12:22pm

Carlo,

Often people ask the question out of concern for their loved ones and not just their own life. The extensiive discussion between Rob and me, silly to you, is of value to us. We could have been standing around the water cooler discussing sports or I could have wasted two hours last night watching TV. Instead we are discussing a Biblical doctrine as fellow believers. No one is required to read our responses, that is up to the passer by. Yet you see our discussion as silly and you too have a view that you just shared:-)

BTW, both views cannot be right on this topic. Though it is not essential regarding receiving salvation, the doctrine of how one retains salvation has much value to the believer. A person cannot be saved eternally (secure) and at the same time be at risk of losing his salvation.

Not confused by your question at all. It is at the heart of the discussion. Are the people in your story truly born-again? Then they do not lose their salvation by works (sin), for they did not gain it through works. If they remain in the path of sin they would experience divine discipline.

Lord Bless,
LT

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