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How can a good God send people to Hell
I have friends who cannot believe in a God who sends decent people, maybe any
people, to hell.
Any ideas of what I can say?
people, to hell.
Any ideas of what I can say?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Donna Layne on
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Amen.
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Permalink Reply by Soldier_Of_Christ on
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It is out of freewill. That is part of making a choice.
How can a loving parent allow their child to go to war knowing there is a chance they might not make it back? It was the child's choice.
To be condemned, we condemn ourselves. Should a God/parent be blamed for a child who purposely disobeys and suffers great consequence? Some may say yes, although we have free will.
We have free will, and those who feel the responsibility of protecting others attempt to do so. However, man is responsible not only for himself, but for everyone around him. (I dunno why I just said this sentence, but....)
In short, here is your answer to your friends. God, is a loving good, but people misunderstand what that love is. We hold onto things we do not want to see damaged out of obsession, not of love. Love means many different things to many people, but a free mind that does not know God will almost never describe is as well as it is written in Corinthians. So already, that is beyond most people's understanding.
Judgment, shows no favor. Don't do the crime if you can't pay the time. Remind them also "If you truly love something, let it go (Free will, no manipulation here), and if it comes back to you then it was meant to be". That is basically how I feel it is with us and God.
How would one feel if someone put a gun to your head and MADE you love them? That would not be love, and God does not do that to us. So even though it may hurt Him, yeah, there are going to be some people who go to Hell.
Ah, I think I need sleep. Not sure if I am making sense. I really should stop replying to threads now LOL.
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Permalink Reply by Craig on
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God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to saving faith through His Son Jesus Christ.
I don't believe God sends anyone to hell. Its a personal choice some make. When we reject Jesus Christ, do we not commit the unpardonable sin?
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Craig...
just to clarify the definition of the 'unpardonable sin' vs.the 'world's sin'
The World's sin is 'unbelief'
Jhn 16:8 And when he comes, he will convince the world of its sin, and of God's righteousness, and of the coming judgment.
Jhn 16:9 The world's sin is unbelief in me.
The 'Unpardonable' sin is blasphemy against the 'Holy Spirit'
Mat 12:31 "Every sin or blasphemy can be forgiven--except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which can never be forgiven.
Mat 12:32 Anyone who blasphemes against me, the Son of Man, can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.
Unbelief can be forgiven... We were all unbelievers at one point in time... Until we were 'born again'
There are more forums here regarding the 'Unpardonable sin' against the Holy spirit.
Blessings, Carla
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Permalink Reply by anthony on
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have u ever heard people get fired own there on terms.by not doing there job coming in late and alot of other things. well i think god is the same way. he just put some people in hell some in heaven. we all have a way that we should live.and a job to do spread the gospel if we love one another and do his will we will have eternal life in his kingdom. but if we hate each other lie cheat steal all things that do not show love in his eyes well u know my opinoin
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Hello Brothers and sisters,
First and foremost i wish all to understand I enter this discussion to spread what I percieve to be truth and love.
It saddens me to hear the common concept of a place that God creates of eternal torment! That is a doctrine that i believe to be false and misrepresenting our creator! Even though I believe God would be just in punishing people forever, he is not that kind of person. We serve a loving God,one who is just and forgiving. That is his nature.
Sin will be dealt with! In all its forms sin will be eradicated. Sin and all satans cohorts will be consumed in the lake of fire at the return of the new jerusalem. Read about it in revelation. God must destroy sin and its influence in order to fulfill his promise of a earth restored for us.
God does not torture humans. We as humans are the ones who do that! This false doctrine misrepresents God and causes much confusion in his family.
Listen for a second to this point of logic.... when you burn a piece of paper up is it not burned up forever? Can it be used anymore? Does it serve any purpose to keep it around any more? What happens to the paper as it is burned? Does it not rise upward in the form of smoke? Does not the smoke trail seem endless? Such is described the lake of fire. this is not a place of eternal torment! It is a place of finality.
To me it seems that if God truly wanted to punish and torture people he would place the wicked in heaven. Would they not be truly miserable there? Would not a holy environment drive them to distraction?
God must by his own law deal with sin in the only way that makes any sense. He must do away with it. and to continue to punish people for wrong doing after we are glorified is not putting the matter to rest. Sin must be done away with in deed and thought.
Actually the word used for hell in the bible often times is the greek word for grave. Literally sheol
.Is the grave hell? I think not! Rather to me it is more a resting place. Scripture tells us that the dead know nothing. I believe that when i am in the grave i will be resting not knowing or feeling anything till my lord comes and ressurects me to glory. Pray that I be in the first ressurection. I would welcome further discourse with any brothers and sisters on this matter if any so wish.
We need to be clear on what it is we believe in and to take a proactive and positive approach to truth. There is indeed power in the truth of scripture. Power to better understand the one whom we serve. We do him little justice by not understanding who and what he is.
His truths all fit together to show a kind and benevolent creator who wishes none to be lost. A creator who has sacrificed so much that we might be again with him!
Another point to consider. What did God tell the first man and woman would happen to them if they disobeyed? Is going to a place of eternal fire and brimstone dying? What was Satan's responce to eve's pointing out to satan that she would die if she partook of the tree of knowlege? Did he not lie by saying "surely thou shalt not die!" Be not confuused, The wages of sin is death! Real death. Not a partial death of floating around in limbo or being in a place of eternal torment.
Gods plan makes perfect sense and is just for everyone. Even I as a sinner must trust in his perfect wisdom and the understanding of his word is worth any effort! Our God is bigger than any torture we might see fit! Praise his holy name! IHL Stephen
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Hi Stephen,
Could you please post the scripture to support your comment:
"It saddens me to hear the common concept of a place that God creates of eternal torment! That is a doctrine that i believe to be false and misrepresenting our creator! Even though I believe God would be just in punishing people forever, he is not that kind of person."
Also, I think you must have meant to say that God is a 'Spirit' rather than a person?? Or were you referring to the person as 'Jesus'? Could you please clarify? It is always absolutely essential and important to put scripture along with discussions of doctrine, especially one as important as this!
Thank you....Carla
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Hello Carla,
I begin by telling you that I appreciated your input to Jan's querry. And I appologize for not includind more scriptural references to my comment. The fact is you will find little in scripture thats gives much of an explanation to a place of eternal torment, The place of "hell" is a longstanding idea of what God does to people who do not do as he wishes. I grew up hearing many a fire and brimstone sermon. It always bothered me that a loving God would feel the need to punish people forever, torture them eternaly!
"Be a good little boy, Keep his commandments or you will burn! but remember God loves you." Carla, does that not seem a bit inconsistent?
Much of the problem in understanding "hell" comes from a common misunderstanding of what death really is. This is almost a whole other issue but i see no other way to address it. Many people believe that when you die you either go to heaven or hell. If this is true why does scripture speak of a resurrection on Christs return? 1 Thess. 4:13-18, 1 Cor. 15:51-53. I touched briefly on my earlier comment. Satan has always tried to confuse the issue of death and to then misrepresent God. Gen:3,4. When we die we know nothing. Matt 27:52-53. Ps. 146:4. Death, especially to a christian, is more like a sleep. we go to the grave or "sheol." The spirits of the dead are not floating around somewhere neither are they in heaven or hell. They sleep awaiting the judgment of their creator. There are many scriptural references to this!
I believe the place often mistaken as hell is a literal place. Namely the lake of fire. this is the place of destruction of satan and his followers after they try to take the new jerusalem here on earth. Please read revelation 20.
Lastly, I know my father in heaven to be far more than just a "spirit in the sky." He is a spirit yes but he is also a personage who has feelings similar to us. He loves, feels anger,is jealous but not like we are. He has a personality.He has form, I suspect any he wishes. and he knows some cool magic, like wrapping himself in light or fire! To me Carla he much more than a spirirt. In fact i don't believe our language can describe him properly! As our father he has many names but "God" is more his title. As my creator I see him as a person as well as a spirit. Did not Jesus ask us to pray to him as he did? Do we not pray to him as our father in heaven? I am afraid we will have to await our glorification to better understand his whole nature and manner of being. For now the fact that he is LOVE will suite me just fine. I know that I go against the common grain here but My father torturing souls forever does not fit in with the God I know and trust!
Dear sister in Christ, Thank you for your querrys. I am not a very good typer of essays.
My education is lacking but I hope I have been able to show some sound reasoning for these beliefs.
I trust in the spirit of truth and heaven to help me explain what I believe to be scriptural. Thank you Carla! May the love of God be with you this Christnas season!
Peace Stephen P.S. Please feel free to contact me with any further questions in regard to this huge subject. Also I believe the word of Good interprets itself namely proves itself. Back to Gods nature...."And the word became flesh and dwelt among us"
Merry Christmas Carla!
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Stephen,
You are confusing what happens to the body with what happens with the spirit. The spirit of the saved depart from the body at death and do indeed go to be with the Lord in a conscious state (Rev. 6:9; 2 Cor. 5:8). The verses you cite only allude to the resurrection when the spirit is united with the new body.
Soul sleep is a false doctrine that is not substantiated in Scripture.
Satan does not try to take the New Jerusalem. The new city appears in Rev. 21 after the final battle in Rev. 20. Satan is not destroyed, but rather tormented forever and ever (Rev. 20:10).
Your view of how one stays out of hell, based on what you were taught at a young age, is unfortunately based on a legalistic view. Salvation is by grace, not works (Eph. 2:8-9). Hell is deserved because of our standing in relation to God because of personal sin. Christ came to redeem us from under the curse of the law and the penalty of guilt due to sin (Rom. 3:23; Rom. 6:23)
Please define what you mean by "he knows cool magic."
Hell is an often taught subject in Scripture and is taught with eternal ramifications:
2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
LK 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
MK 9:42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
" `their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
MT 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
MT 13:40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
You may also want to check out the following web site:
http://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html
Lord Bless,
LT
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Dear brother LT,
I can see that i have in a sense opened a can of worms. I can also see that there is a reason i do not claim to be a theologian. I have read your counsel with great interest and I thank you for the references you listed including the websites. Know that you encourage me into further study and prayer.
If i may be permitted to clarify my remark about God knowing some cool magic. I do not in any way mean to imply that God has any need to practice the art of illusion. However i am certain that his appearance to Moses and the Isrealites as a " pillar of fire" did appear to them as magic. God is all powerful and can best the efforts of even the most knowlegable magicians. His works may sometimes appear as magic but as in the case of moses staff, he devoured the pitiful attempts of man and satan to frighten the righteous. God is after all a master of the elements. He created them. I admitt it was an ill advised attempt to describe his power and majesty. I wish I could remember where it was in scripture that he is described as wrapping himself in light. Could this have been the burning bush story?
In regards to REV. 20 verse 9 Satan and his followers do indeed surround the city of God and intend to make war. I have always believed this city mentioned in chapter 20 to be the new jeruslalem. But to me the larger issue here is that this is the place final judgment takes place. I have always felt that God indeed does have a special place for satan and his prophets. But it is clear to me here that the wicked are devoured and burned up, not tortured forever and ever, as is satan and his prophets.MAL 4: 1-3
In regards to your proposal that I am a legalist, might I reaffirm that I am personally saved by the Grace of God through faith in the merits of his son Jesus the Christ! Jesus is indeed my Redeemer and my high priest in heaven.
The law of God does indeed condemn me but I trust in the merits of my lord Jesus to meet the requirements of Gods holy law. Jesus came not to nullify the law but to fulfill it! Actually even though they condemn me I love his commandments. They impart to me a reflection of his character. His commandments show me the beauty of his perfect nature and love. As David said "his law is a hedge about me". It (the law) is an example of his perfect love for us.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by "soul sleep" and suffer from a lack of knowlege on this "doctrine". All I know is that I do not believe the soul to be immortal. I believe that when I die God is in charge of my soul. Actually I believe my soul is not mine but Gods and was bought with a terrible price! I do not float around in a spiritual state like a ghost. To the dust I return. I am truly dead. ECCL. 9:5,6 JOB. 14:12,21 PS 146:4 I do not believe the lie Satan told Eve in regards to her eating of the forbidden fruit. Yes i understand that our response to temptation has eternal ramifications hence the need for us a savior to guide, redeem and strengthen!
I am well aware that i go against the common understanding of the nature of hell and death. However I also understand that one must, as a child of God, stand true to his concience. Reason tells me there is something wrong with the common understanding of hell. That understanding reflects on the very nature of the Lord I serve. It just seems inconsistent to me that my God, a God of love sees fit to torture and continue that torture into eternity. Even though he might have every right to do so. I am open to the idea however that he might have a special place of torment reserved for Satan and his prophets. I do not presume to know the mind of God. What I do claim to know is his nature with the help of his holy spirit and the example of our lord Jesus the Christ.
I also perceive that the place of hell is both referred to figuratively and literally. Lets just say that I know enough to know I am not a theologian.
In regards to your first two references I find them to be figurative in nature,The later especially in that this narrative describes
Gods will to dispense justice for his martyrs. I do not believe them to try and describe the literal state of being of the dead. Scripture often uses narrative to describe ideas or principles. There are many scriptures literal in nature that describe the state of the dead in great detail. Please note the texts listed at the end of my reply.
I do believe there is a hell just as I believe there is the heaven and new earth God promises to us. I just do not believe in hell as an eternal place of torment for anyone other than Satan.The Beast and his prophet. Hell to me is a place of final judgment. MT 13:40
Thank you Brother and I do percieive you as a brother in Christ. I hope in the same love you do and do take your writting this counsel to me indeed as an act of brotherly love. I take your counsel to heart and continue my studies with a prayerful heart and mind. Jesus is lord!
IHL Stephen
Merry Christmas to you and yours LT!
ECCL. 9:5,6
JOB. 14:12,21
DAN. 12:2
MATT.27:52
PS. 146:4
JOHN 11:11-14
1 THESS. 4:13-15
GEN. 3:17-19
I am willing to provide more textual evidence if you would like to see them.
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Stephen,
I wish to clear up a couple of things so that we can discuss this subject in peace. I do not question whether you are a believer. All who call upon the name of the Lord and surrender to Him as their Savior are saved and become brothers in Christ. I did not call you a legalist, nor intend to in anyway imply it (though I can see how you took it that way, could have been stated better by me). I pointed out that the teaching you were exposed to is legalistc. In fact your view on this topic is far from legalistic. The reference of the new city being in Rev. 21 was for clarity sake, not an "I gotcha" statement on my part.
There are several individual topics to discuss in your statement and I would like to address them one by one if you are willing, knowing others will opine from time to time as well.
These are the ones I see thus far:
1. God is a loving God, therefore He would not condemn someone to eternal punishment.
2. The existence of hell and eternal punishment.
3. Viewing certain passages as figurative.
4. Soul sleep: No conscious awareness during our absence from a body. Included in this is what happens to the body and spirit upon physical death.
I applaud you that you are taking a stand for what you believe. This is critical, and at the same time we all must be open and teachable ... and here in your response you appear to be such a person. This site is designed for open discussion with the desire for iron to sharpen iron. In the end we all grow. Regarding you not being a theologian, very few on this site are. Most of us are journeymen, people on a life long journey with Jesus seeking to grow in faith, knowledge and love.
Lastly, in Christ we walk together, on this topic we disagree. Now let us reason together to see if we both can grow as we seek the truth of God's Word together. May God's Spirit guide both of us to the truth.
(I will use a separate text box for the topics)
Lord Bless,
LT
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Stephen,
1. God is a loving God, therefore He would not condemn someone to eternal punishment.
God is love (1 Jn. 4:8). This statement is undenaible, but it also is not the only attribute by which God lives and operates. He is also righteous, holy and just. In fact there are at least 16 attributes that clearly describe God. Eight of these are understandable, to a degree, and eight are near impossible to grasp, but still true none-the-less. God does not set aside one attribute or is He guided by one more than another. These attributes simply are the characteristics of Who He is and reveal something about His mannerism and the way He functions.
Regarding love, first I take it from your writting that you do not believe all are saved (correct me if I am wrong). You believe that one must come to Jesus for salvation (Acts 4:12). If I read you correctly, your premise is that the unjust or wicked do not experience eternal punishment, but are rather destroyed.
What is the difference between stating that God, because He is love, cannot allow a person to experience eternal punishment and believeing that the same loving God could "destroy" someone completely. If love is the primary or only attribute that He operates by can one say that a loving God would be in error or acting contrary to love when He brought the flood on the earth destroying all but eight of the human race? Would a God that operates based solely on love have rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah? What about Korah's rebellion? The Israelites taking the promise land from the Cannanites? What about Ananias and Sapphira in the New Testament? These actions flow from Who He is. He is love and much more. His actions are always right and just (Deut. 32:4).
If God can do these things while being a God of love and a just God, what prevents Him from sending one to eternal punishment because of their sin?
Lord Bless,
LT
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