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in IJohn 5:16 what is the sin that john is refering too
in I john 5:16 it refers to a sin that leads to death. what sin is he refering to?
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Permalink Reply by Larry on
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LT
Also, all human judgements about the best Bible to study are subjective. However, none of the other translation in English that I have read actually allow the reader to see the correct English words or phrases that the original Hebrew and Greek intended. Sure there are many great interpretations and all have value. But to study deeply and understand, stick with the Amplified Bible.
Larry -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Larry,
Ron has laid out strong responses to the subjects regarding the Amplified Bble and Hebrews 6:4-6. I will add that Hebrews 6:4-5 can also be taken as illustrative of what would happen "if one could lose their salvation," or as you state "unbelieve it away," This whole concept does not align with the Book of Hebrews or the whole of Scripture.
Let's look at a couple of thngs:
1) The idea of believing (knowing it is true) and then some how developing unbelief (knowing it is not true) is an oxymoron. This enlightenment does not come as the result of man's higher learning, but through the illumination of the Holy Spirit. For one to know Jesus as Lord and Savior, to have truly surrendered to Him it would be impossible to know these facts and then somehow no longer know them to be true. Unbelief can only exist in the unregenerated person, specifically the unregenerated mind. What you speak of is different (which is a good thing in of itself) than many who believe our actions can cost us our salvation, which is an incorrect belief as well. You speak of knowing and then unknowing the truth.
2) The Book of Hebrews establishes over and over the certainty of Christ's work on ur behalf and our secured salvation, in which we become coheirs with Christ. Jesus is the author of our salvation and we become His brother (2:10-11). Once we are His brother that cannot be undone. Jesus has become the High Priest who has experienced the suffering associated with temptation and therefore, understands and works on our behalf (2:16-18). Note that chapter 3 relates tot he Jews and their rebellion. This reminder is helpful as God unveils His plan and offer of salvation to them and us. Hebrews 4:12-16 again speaks of the work of the High Priest on our behalf. Hebrews 5 distinguishes between the earthly priesthood and the High Priest (Jesus) and the eternal salvation in found in Him. In 6:4-6 the key word is repentance which deals with a change of mind that affects a change in direction. One's mind cannot be changed (regenerated) and then changed back again. The next few chaptes deal with the promise, the work of Jesus and His atoning sacrifice that is once for all who believe, becoimg heirs, all of which rely on the work of Jesus. Much of what Ron pointed out is covered in these chapters. The Bible goes on to demonstrate the differences between the old and new covenant. Hebrews 9:15 is important as well is Hebrews 10:19-25. The last part of 10 talks of one who walks by faith and one who has does not have faith. Within the church organization there are many who claim to be saved, but are not. These will shrink back in times of true trial, because their hope is not sure, for they have not truly experienced the changing power of God and been saved. Chapter 11 speaks for itself. The first part of chapter 12 brings out the discipline and love of the Father for those who walk in disobedience. The later part demonstrates the difference in our relationship with Him. We are not told to stay away from the mountain, but t draw near. Hebrews 13:5-6 wrap up the whole point in my opinion. The work of salvation is God's work. We are the recipients. I true choice is not as much acceptance, but rather surrender to Him as Lord and Savior.
I will not illustrate further from the rest of Scripture, for I realize that many great minds (not that I put myself in that catagory) have discussed this issue over the centuries with out coming to a common ground. God gives you the freedom to believe one can enter into a state of unbelief, I disagree and think the Scripture substantiates my view. I realize that you feel the same about your view.
I believe we can agree that the true key is not defining a line, if there were one, but that we must spur each other on to draw closer to God and that we should desire to grow in the grace of the Lord.
* Different subject: Freewill.
Freewill has it limitations. We can choose certain things in life, but cannot stop or alter the plan of God as it arcs through time. We make choices at the human level and one of those choices is whether we surrender to Jesus as Lord and Savior. If one is truly changed, as Scripture teaches, which is a work of God, man cannot by choice change himself back. Lastly regarding freewill (time is limited for me today) it is not freewill or predestiantion. It is both. Both aspects operate in God's creation and in man.
Know this, I believe that you believe what you do with a passion and that this difference in our belief is important, but not critical. If you have come to Jesus and surrendered to Him (which I believe you have) we are brothers in Christ. We are not enemies, but partakers of God's goodness. We do not agree on this issue, but none-the-less we are brrothers in Jesus.
(time did not allow me to edit, so pardon any major typos, etc)
Lord Bless,
LT -
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LT
For some reason I don't have the choice to reply to your long email 4 hrs ago. So will add a comment or two here.
You are absolutely right about a difference in opinion on this issue is only of cursory interest. I have accepted Christ and am your spiritual brother. Love discussing, though, for few people around me study enough to be versed on the topic. I know I must mature further in Christ and have yet to meet anyone who doesn't need to.
Also agree with your "free will" statment: with creation, God has included an element of complete free will, but also of predestination (which of course is an antinomy).
Larry -
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Ron
What about Free Will. If it's there, you have to allow the possibility of a Believer "unbelieveing".
Larry
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Hi Larry,
Free Will, Hmmm! What about the sovereignty of God?
God was able to proclaim Jeremiah to be a prophet before his birth and even said that He knew Him before he formed Jeremiah in the mother's womb. Jeremiah left his mother's womb a sanctified and ordained prophet.
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5
It would be extreme presumption to believe that we found God before He found us.
We have all the free will any man can have, but God by His foreknowledge already knew that once He came in and took up residence in our lives, we would still have free will... Not only to turn away, but to persevere in the faith until death. Why? Because we have literally been raised from the dead into a new life in Christ
"Therefore, through baptism we were buried with him into his death so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father's glory, we too may live an entirely new life." Rom 6:4 (ISV)
Read the above verse in your Amp Bible. (Excellent rendition of the verse)
When I experience the Awe, of knowing that the majestic and all powerful God, that created the heavens and the earth by His word and has taken up permanent residence within me, then with Peter's reply to Jesus, I say: "Lord to whom else can we go? You have the words of life"
Having said all that Larry. What makes me so sure that a Born Again child of God will not lose His salvation? Or give evidence that I have lost my free will? It's because, NONE of the above came from me or is dependant on me. Finally it is because of that fact that I can also say with Paul: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. It is this love that constrains me.
God is sovereign. Many young Christians are unable to grasp the full realisation of what has happened to them, but His Word plus the caring love and teaching of the Holy Spirit will help them to choose to remain faithful.
"The love of Christ constrains us, for we are convinced of this: that one person died for all people; therefore, all people have died. He died for all people, so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for the one who died and rose for them." 2Cor 5:14-15. Therefore there can be no thought of deserting Him in apostasy unless one has not experienced the New Birth.
Blessings
Ron
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Apology for the added word Larry. But I found myself thinking of the Pearl of Great Price> looked it up and present it here.
The pearl of great price in this case is God, Who is of an unspeakable brightness and glory, of intrinsic worth and value; Who is enriching to those that possess him, and precious to them that believe; and of such a price, that no valuable consideration can be given for him: Wherefore such a soul is willing to part with all for him; with sinful self, and righteous self; and with the honours, riches, and profits of this world; and buy him, his grace and righteousness, without money, and without price. (John Gill's exposition of the Bible)
Choice to turn away from this gift can never be an option for the one who possesses it.
Blessings - Ron -
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Ron
Sorry, but you are not reading the text.
Romans 6:4 says "may live", not "will live"; there is a free will choice.
Romans 8:38,39 Nothing external can separate us, but Paul ignored the internal unbelief.
II Cor 5:15 says "should live no longer...", not "will live no longer...".; again a free will choice.
How do you read Rev 3:2-5. Sure sounds like God is telling the church of Sardis (in verse 5), some of the believers there will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
Larry -
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I am sorry guys, but not all posts display "Reply to This" below some of your posts. This makes it impossible to keep everything in order and ship shape. It forces me to jump to a post that does display the invitation to "Reply to this".
Having said that.........
Let me also add soothing balm to Carla's Brow plus all those involved in this open discussion. My intentions here are simply to participate and enjoy lively debate, for which I am impressed, particularly with the amount of effort and typing undertaken.
Now Larry, your comment that I am not reading the text is wrong. In fact I try to place myself as one seated in front of Paul listening to him as he explains his thoughts on various subjects.
I then look around at the audience seated around me and in regard to Romans 6:4 I ask myself: Are these listeners seated around me, All Baptised Believers or are there some that are not. Also which of the two is Paul addressing?
In what he says in Rom 6: 3-5 I realise that he is addressing two parties, because he speaks of "all of us who have been baptised"
This means there were some who had not.
He also reveals that he has doubt about some of them when he says: "For IF we have become one"
For those who have assumed that Paul is speaking only to Born Again Spirit filled Christians is mistaken. This is why Readers come to wrong conclusions. It is under such conditions that Paul cannot be adamant in what he says, but in his speech, because of New Comers whom he may not know, he uses words like "might live" "should walk” etc.
The unwary Reader would assume then that Paul refers these words to all the listeners around him.
I have realised what Paul's difficulties are in his approach to two levels of listeners.
Therefore I believe I have done more than simply glancing at the verses.
Larry you seem to be obsessed with Believers becoming unbelievers.
Because of this I have always used the term Born Again Spirit filled Christians. So that there would be no misunderstanding regarding these Christians and who I was referring to.
Believers can believe anything. They can also believe half heartedly or only assume the name Christian, because they think they believe.
A) Therefore for the sake of agreement, I will say OK believers can unbelieve.
B) But without wanting to start all over again, Born Again, Spirit filled Christians cannot fall away.
LT. Thank you for your words of wisdom, it always becomes "A Moment" for me when I see that you have placed comments of your own. Thank you both for the debate I enjoyed it _ What's next?
Blessings and Carla we are all back to our neutral corners.
Ron.
This I believe Larry will satisfy both of us in that you have your Believing Unbeliever and I have My Born Again Spirit filled Christian.
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Ron
We should end this part agreeing to disagree. Have a bunch of othet stuff that will blow your socks off, but let's wait a bit.
Larry -
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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One of my favourite daily devotions is written by Oswald Chambers. It is called My Utmost for His Highest, I like to begin my day with it. It just so happens that one of the daily devotionals is devoted to this verse. If you have this devotional it is on March the 31st. Anyhow, here it is:
If we are not heedful of the way the Spirit of God works in us, we will become Spiritual Hypocrites. We see where other folks are failing, and we turn our discernment into the gibe of criticism instead of into intercession on their behalf. The revelation is made to us not through the acuteness of our minds, but by the direct penetration of the Spirit of God, and if we are not heedful of the source of the revelation, we will become criticizing centers and forget that God says: ....he shall ask, and HE shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. Take care lest you play the hypocrite by spending all your time trying to get others right before you worship God yourself.
One of the subtlest burdens God ever puts on us as saints is this burden of discernment concerning other souls. He reveals things so that we may take the burden of these souls before Him and form the mind of Christ about them, and as we intercede on His line, God says HE will give us life for them that sin not unto death. It is not that we bring God into touch with our minds, but that we rouse ourselves until God is able to convey His mind to us about the one for whom we intercede.
Is Jesus Christ seeing the *travail of His soul in us? He cannot unless we are so identified with Himself that we are roused up to get His view about the people for whom we pray. May we learn to intercede so wholeheartedly that Jesus Christ will be satisfied with us as intercessors. (all emphasis mine).
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*I was not sure what travail meant so I looked it up.....
1. Work, especially when arduous or involving painful effort; toil. See synonyms at work.
2. Tribulation or agony; anguish.
3. The labor of childbirth.
Blessings and Love in Christ, Carla
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Hello dear Larry,
It sounds to me like you may be speaking out of some sort of personal experience you have gone through.
Make no mistake that the enemy will throw darts of doubt our way, to make us question our faith in the Life Saving Grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In order to guard against such attacks we must stay in close fellowship with Jesus each and every day, and every moment of every day. We must also stay in close fellowship with eachother as the body of believers. Your theory of an 'unbelieving believer', may be someone who is simply under enemy attack, and if that is the case, they need extra prayer coverage. If the enemy can 'steal our JOY' in Christ, and cause us to question our salvation, he can then cause us to backslide.....
This is just a thought, you can let me know if I am off base.
Each of us must remember to put on our daily armor (Eph 6:10-18)each day.....and again if under attack. Worshipping Christ is a powerful weapon in defeating the enemy attacks we will all experience at some point or another.
Love in Christ, Carla
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