TODAY’S GOSPEL, IS IT THE GOSPEL PREACHED BY OUR EARLY CHURCH FATHERS?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 30, 2008 at 2:17pm

Ron,

Using your lingo, your forum is "spot on." I respond to your question with a troubled heart with the following response:

In history, everytime a people departed from the Word they fell away from God and into error (See Israel's history). Everytime a people tried to manipulate the Word they fell away from God and into error (Study the Pharisees). I everytime they were restored or renewed the Word of God brought change in the people's lives.

The key is the "Word of God." Today we have divisions amongst people, one group calls themselves "spirit-led" and the other are deemed fundementalist. Both are in error if they do not hold (submit) to the truths of the Word of God and submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit. It is not an either - or, but both (John 14:23-26).

Nothing, absolutely nothing, is acceptable if it is not in agreement with God's Word. What we believe and do must be substantiated by His Word. There is no latter day rain that supercedes His Word with a new word that contradicts His given Word, the Bible. The Bible does not need new man made tricks to enhance it, it simply needs to be presented in truth and love. People must accept or reject the Word of God on it's merits, not the merits of the presenter (Rom. 10:14-17). One can argue methodology all they want, but if the Word of God is not the primary tool used to bring Jesus into focus, then the method is in error.

Regarding where the problem lies. The lion share of the responsibility has to fall upon the pulpit and church leadership. The one who takes on the responsibility of a pastor, teacher, evangelist, is responsible for teaching truth. He/she will be the one who stands before God one day giving account for what they have taught. Being a pastor, I take this charge very seriously.

In a lesser regard, the hearer is responsible too. They must verify that the pastor is presenting truth and not take it at face value. We need more Bereans today. There are too many Christians that are "repeaters." What I mean by that is that they can only repeat what they have heard and have not given it any critical thought on their own. This may sound harsh, but my experience has shown this to be true too often. They cannot tell you "Why" they believe what that profess to believe (1 Peter 3:15).

Now we have a third problem. If the pastor is preaching truth and the congregation is verifying it, there will still be some who don't like what they hear and move on. Often they move on and start a new group and instill a person to the position of pastor who will teach what they want to hear (2 Tim. 4:3-4). They put a cross on the building, profess to be Christian, yet, Jesus is nowhere to be found (Matthew 7:21-28).

My response is not comprehensive. The key is not trying to identify every error or failure. The key is returning to the path and that is through the Bible.

I will include an illustration from my life. I took a year off from preaching a while back and my wife and I visited 30 +/- churches during that time. Of those we visited, get ready, less than five used the Bible as their primary teaching source. The others taught pop psychology, lessons from authors, or simply told stories. I went home starving, because I was not fed, for the only true meat for the Christian is the Word of God, and not repackaged by a well known author.

There is no replacement for the Word of God and we must relearn to study it in a exegetical manner. If I sound bias, I am. The Word of God is the answer, submitting to the Word and the Spirit, instead of trying to get them to work for us, we must repent and surrender to them.

There is one more issue that needs to be added, and that is what I call the 80-20 principle. If a preacher teaches 80% truth and 20% error, then the whole ministry is in jeopardy. When this 20% is not accidental mistakes, but wilfull departing from truth flee from that ministry. If it is accidental, address the teacher with the truth. We must learn to differentiate between truth and error. The answer is the Word of God.

My thoughts,
LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Alan on July 30, 2008 at 10:50pm

Being cautious is a good thing, i noticed that no one here has claimed to have been to one of these meetings and has not interviewed anyone who has. We are all going on distance observations.
The claim to the power of God has always been suspect in the eyes of the institutional church. This is the reason for the excommunication of those during the reformation. The role of the church was challenged and those in power did not like that.
The format used in these meetings does not lead to a middle of the road view. There is no room to wait and look things over the interaction level is high and makes some of us uncomfortable.
Mr.Hanegraaff does not agree with much of anything that does not come out of the Calvary Chapel movement. Mr. Hanegraaff is a fine teacher but is firmly intreched in the dogma of a divisional movement (that is what denomation means division).
The role of Jesus is to transform the personal life of the believer and to that we must look. Is this affecting the lives of those involved in a dramatic and drastic way for Jesus then great, if not then I think God is big enough to sort it all out.
I am concerned with my own walk and if I will complete the tasks that have been set for me, i'll let others do the same.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on July 31, 2008 at 12:12am

Ahh! LT....
How right you are... People do not realise that they will be judged according to the Word.
I am sure that there will be many who read this post. I do believe that your reply showed us the necessity of "Searching the Word to see if the things being said or taught, are according to the Word"
Now for the Reader's sake, I would like to act as the Devil's advocate. Hoping that it would answer questions that might be left hanging in the air. May I ask you LT - I trust your Theology - to assist Readers by answering them?
To some the answers are already known, but your replies will help to confirm their beliefs. To others who are still New in the faith, it will give them confidence and a desire to Search the Scriptures daily for themselves.
Please forgive my assumption and for taking advantage of your assistance without asking you first.

1. Why is the Bible so important to Christians?
2. If we are saved before being judged, what are we being judged for?
3. Is my salvation in jeopardy, if my theology regarding other doctrines is faulty?
4. Apart from Salvation, how serious would it be if I have other faulty beliefs?
5. How would I approach my Pastor if I had doubts on what he preaches?
6. If I am not happy with his answers. Should I leave or wait. I might be at fault?
7. Who are the Berean Christians, anyway?
8. What Book/s in the New Testament would give me a quick, yet the most sound
understanding of New Testament theology?
9. Is there any commentary that I might use and trust for a good foundation?
10. What method besides scripture is used to sound the truth of what others
teach or do?

Thank you LT and again apologies for placing you on the spot. But who better?
The Lord Bless each and everyone of us.
Your Brother and Friend in Christ - Ron

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 31, 2008 at 2:22pm

Ron,

The 10 questions each could have books written about each of them, or at least a chapter or two. I endeavored to answer your questions form my humble point of view in a very brief manner and feel that it falls way short of conveying all that needs to be said, but submit my response as follows:

1. Why is the Bible so important to Christians?

The Bible says the following, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim. 3:16-17) Timothy was instructed to read it publicly, preach it and to teach it (1 Tim. 4:13). Paul proclaims that it is the cross only that he will boast in (Gal. 6:14). John 3:16 teaches us that God so loved the world that He gave His One and Only Son to die for us that we may have eternal life if we believe in Him. “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:39-40).

I repeat the following verses from my previous post in this post:
“How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” Romans 10:14-17

How did Paul know that the feet of the one who brings good news are beautiful? It is written in Isaiah 52:7. Without the recorded word would he have known that? Without the recorded word would you have known that?

Many would accuse me of going to the Bible to prove the Bible. This is the one book that requires no outside confirmation. I either believe it is God’s Word and treat it as such, or I do not. In my case, I do believe it is God’s Word to us. If one wishes to test the Bible we need only look to history and science which only prove the accuracy of the Word over and over. Regardless of any testing, it still stands as God’s Word.

There are five principles revealed in those 2 Timothy 3:16-17. 1) Teaching: How would we know anything about Jesus, God’s love, and His plan for man if we are not taught this from His unchanging Word? 2) Rebuking: This idea is not for us to rebuke the world, but for believers to rebuke each other. We are to hold each other accountable based on God’s Word, His teachings. 3) Correcting: To rebuke without giving guidance regarding correcting the error would be useless. The purpose is to bring one back into alignment with God and His Word. 4) Training in righteousness: What is righteousness? Isaiah 64:6 calls our righteousness “filthy rags” and Romans 8 talks about the war within. In this war there would be no guidance without God having recorded His Word for man to follow. 5) That we may be equipped for every good work. How would we know what we ought to do without God’s recorded Word?


Imagine for a moment that the Bible had never been written. How would we know who Jesus is? How would we know the path of salvation? Could you imagine the variety of churches/beliefs we would have today if there was no standard by which all is established and judged? Why do you think that there have been manifold attempts to rid the world of the Bible through the ages?

Without the Bible, if Christianity still existed, a Christian would have no guide or standard by which to live or teach. We would be like the days of the judges when it was proclaimed that everyone did as he saw fit (Jdg. 17:5-6).

God’s Word has stood the test of time and has not been changed as many would like others to believe today. Ancient texts time and time again show the accuracy of the Word.

The Word of God is the standard by which all things are judged.

Lastly on the Word, often we refer to prayer being the key to any true revival that has been recorded in the history of man. This is true, yet so was the Word of God. Martin Luther discovered grace, but what if there had been no recorded Word? Might we believe that with out the Word we would simply be blind guides guiding the blind.

2. If we are saved before being judged, what are we being judged for?

There are several judgments listed in Scripture. One of the mistakes people make in my opinion is misunderstanding what judgment means. Judgment is a neutral word. In a civil case there is a judgment in favor of one and a judgment against the other. One is rewarded and one is penalized. In the case of believers we know three things. 1) Romans 8:1 says, “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” There is no punishment awaiting the believer. Jesus has paid the penalty for those who have believed in Him. Therefore, what are we being judged for? 2) The believer is not appointed God’s wrath (1 Thess. 5:9). 3) The believer’s work is being judged for reward. (Read Rev. 20:11-21:8; 1 Cor. 3:12-15)

3. Is my salvation in jeopardy, if my theology regarding other doctrines is faulty?

The focus of this question must be on our salvation. One must determine, based on God’s Word, the path of salvation. The Bible teaches salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). The grace is God’s work or gift on our behalf. He sent His Son Jesus to die in our place, but we only partake of the grace and receive the forgiveness when we, by faith, surrender our lives to Jesus as our Savior. Our salvation is in jeopardy only if the theology regarding salvation is in error. The fact that should humble us all is that none of us have it all correct. Salvation is one area, though, that we cannot afford to make a mistake.

Here is an example. Which millennial view does one hold? Is it pre-mil, post-mil, or a-mil? Your theology on this will affect how you serve, but it does not change whether you are saved.

The answer to the posted question is no, if the theology regarding salvation is accurate. There is a caution here that must be added. Many erred teachings involve salvation, because you cannot have a skewed view of Jesus, His blood, the cross, and our sin to name a few and have the teaching regarding salvation correct.

4. Apart from Salvation, how serious would it be if I have other faulty beliefs?

The key here is determining if the erred teaching is associated with the doctrine of salvation or not.

Starting with the understanding that none of us have it all correct, I wish to express that errors can damage many areas in our life even when not associated with salvation. One may come to Christ and then start down the wrong road and this will lead other people astray. Even the leadership of the failed PTL ministry acknowledged that they started on the right road and departed from the path. Their failure to stay the course brought their ministry down and damaged a lot of other people. If my beliefs only affected me the issue would still be important, but my life affects others as their lives affect me. We are interconnected people, whether we like it or not. When a teacher departs from the path and teaches error He begins to build a foundation that will be built on and the longer the error goes the further away from the truth they will drift.

To further illustrate this I point to Matthew 6:25-33. Are we being taught to seek His kingdom and righteousness or to try and gain the things of this world?


5. How would I approach my Pastor if I had doubts on what he preaches?

If the pastor is a man of God he will be open to, and actually inviting, questions. Ask him to clarify his point. Highlight your concerns, not in a condemning way, for you may be wrong, but in a manner that seeks truth. If you sense the teaching contradicts other Scripture bring them up. Sometimes the apparent contradiction can easily be explained. The goal is truth, not being proved right or he being proved wrong.

6. If I am not happy with his answers. Should I leave or wait. I might be at fault?

There are many variables that would have to be taken into account regarding this question. What doctrine is in error? Is it a clear doctrine or is it really one that falls under a preference? Is the pastor new to the church and leading it astray, or is he the founder surrounded by loyal followers of His teaching? The list of possibilities can almost be endless.

Several steps to consider:
1. Am I right regarding the error in his teaching beyond a shadow of doubt and can I back it up scripturally?
2. Seek the Holy Spirit’s guidance.
3. Address the error with the pastor. If he is unresponsive go to the elders or board.
4. If the leadership supports the pastor’s position, revaluate yours to see if you really are correct and that they are in error.
5. This is where it can be difficult to advise any further. Do you stay and fight against the error or do you simply leave? (I have a preference, but will leave the individual decision to the person and the Holy Spirit)

7. Who are the Berean Christians, anyway?

“As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Acts 17:10-11

They did not take things at face value. They researched what was said to see if it aligned with Scripture. This is a lesson for us today.

8. What Book/s in the New Testament would give me a quick, yet the most sound
understanding of New Testament theology?

I will give a list and point to some basics from each:
The Gospels – Foundation teachings and expression of Christ-life.
Solid Doctrinal Teaching – Romans
Early Church – Acts
Grace vs. Law – Galatians
Church Controversies – 1 & 2 Corinthians
Seeing over the struggles of life – Colossians
Recognizing the struggle of this life – 1 & 2 Peter
Overcoming – 1 John
Pastoral Advice – 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus
OT and NT connection – Hebrews
End Times – 1 Thessalonians and Revelation

The Book that answers the exact question - Romans

9. Is there any commentary that I might use and trust for a good foundation?

Let me explain my process of studying Scripture:
I always start with the Word of God. I examine several factors. Who is the author speaking to? What is the context surrounding the writing? What cultural issues are recorded here that needs to be understood in context? Cross reference this teaching with the whole of Scripture. Examine the original language, much is revealed through the original language. During this process I seek the Holy Spirit to enlighten me to His truth given in the Word.

Once I have done this, I then verify my results with at least two commentaries. I do not start with the commentaries, because they are by the virtue of their name a man’s commentary regarding God’s Word. I choose two to make sure they are in agreement with each other and to verify where my study stands regarding them.

I use Matthew Henry and NIV Bible Commentary mostly.
One needs a good concordance, an atlas and a Bible dictionary.
Owning a Vine’s or language equivalent is a good idea as well.

10. What method besides scripture is used to sound the truth of what others
teach or do?

Not sure I grasp this question. I am reading it as “besides Scripture, how do we stand against what others teach when their teaching is in error.” If that is the question, then we must recognize that Scripture is the standard. the Word of God does not change. We must then be willing to stand up and address the errors of others. Some would like to accuse you of judging if you do, and I simply say that is correct. We are to judge, and the basis of this judgment is God’s Word. If what they are doing is not biblical then how can one stand by and watch them teach error that leads others away from God and potentially see them forever lost because of the erroneous teaching.

Paul named names: 2 Timothy 2:14-18

Final thought: Today, people have been lead to believe that you cannot reach people if you just use God’s Word. We are told that they will not come to the “old type” meetings. We are told that you have to be cutting edge and innovative. I will not argue over methodologies, in fact methods will change. They not only change with time, but from local to local. What cannot change is that it is all about Jesus and the tool that is used to present Jesus is God’s Word, empowered by the Holy Spirit. Remove the real Jesus, the true Word of God and the Holy Spirit what do you have left?

Lord Bless,
LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on July 31, 2008 at 3:31pm

Thank you LT,
I am really grateful to you for your prompt reply. As you said one could write chapters if not books on most of the questions. You did an admirable job and I trust that those who are not completely familiar with sound doctrinal truths and faith, would study your answers and hide them in their hearts for a time when there might be a need.
The Bible is the ONE book that is absolutely unique in what it contains. There is no other book like it. At a later time, not too distant I believe. The Bible may be our only encouragement and strength to see us through some desperate times and should we be caught reading it, lives will be threatened. Already this is happening in different parts of the world and time will bring serious life threatening persecution here.
During that time we may be denied a Bible to read, hence the need to hide scripture in our hearts through memorisation. Our very best friend may well be the one who shouts to our would be captors:
"Come see, he is hiding here."
It is then that those without proper foundations in the Word, will find it extremely difficult to withstand persecution.
Once again LT, I am indebted to you and promise not to take you unawares again.
Your Brother in Christ - Ron

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Deborah Sue Schenfeld on July 31, 2008 at 1:42am

Since you did leave this question open for discussion, I will jump in!
To Mr./ Rev? Payne, since I'm not famillar with you, I would say, respectfully, I share almost all your concerns for the church, (meaning the universal Body of Christ on earth). I was 2 yrs. old the year that you accepted Christ. It was 12 yrs. later, in 1970, that I came to a saving knowledge of Christ. I blundered through my Christian life, glad to be part of God's family, but sadly lacking guidance & direction from the churches I attended. I was an eager student, I memorized scripture, I went to Sunday School, prayer meetings, Bible studies, but still lacked that solid foundation of repentance, godly fear & respect for the truth & power of God's Word. Doctrines of 'cheap grace' & declining moral standards, (both in & outside the church) robbed me of the joy & vibrancy that my Christian walk should have had! The Holy Spirit is a faithful teacher & eventually I grew in Christ.
I don't blame ONLY the negative changes in the church & society. I also blame those who 'camped' on each new move & revelation of God, because it was more comfortable to 'do chuch' around ritual & doctrine, then to keep seeking the unfolding of God's larger plan, (for His ONE New Man). It's true, God's word & standards never change but we the church are always to remain pliable in His hands. The church as we know & 'do' it, is NOT the the 2nd chapter of Acts church! Before Christ comes again, I believe God will restore HIS church back to His original design. Some will have to either let go of what they thought was the WHOLE truth, (their little devisive doctrines), or find themselves fighting against Almighty God!
So, please, don't be so quick to dismiss the Toronto Blessing & this thing going on in Lakeland, Florida, as mind-control or something from the devil. If it's of God, (& we HAVE another 30 yrs.) then history will show the influence. If it's of man, just a 'flash-in-the-pan', God will put a lid on it! Don't expext a new move of God to fit in your old box.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on July 31, 2008 at 4:44am

Dear Deborah,

I am slightly confused as I read your life history regarding false teachings.

I quote from your post:

"but sadly lacking guidance & direction from the churches I attended. I was an eager student, I memorized scripture, I went to Sunday School, prayer meetings, Bible studies, but still lacked that solid foundation of repentance, godly fear & respect for the truth & power of God's Word. Doctrines of 'cheap grace' & declining moral standards, (both in & outside the church) robbed me of the joy & vibrancy that my Christian walk should have had!"

Surely from this experience of "doctrines of cheap grace" etc. You would now be in the forefront of rightly dividing the Word of God to insure that others do not fall into a similar trap that you experienced?

One does not have to wait 30 years to see whether doctrines or behaviour
patterns are from God or not.
God has already supplied a manual from which we are able to behave as the Berean Christians did. This manual is the Bible.

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Acts 17:11.

Had someone undertaken this on your behalf and advised you, when you were being poorly guided as a Babe in Christ. You would surely have grown earlier and blossomed faster into the Christian, we all hope to become one day.

The Bible is also a historical book, in that "there is nothing new under the sun." What we are witnessing and what we still have to witness has all happened before. (Read the Book of Ecclesiastes)
These heresies can be found attempting to creep into the bible, where OT prophets or New Testament Saints similar to Paul, rejected them, or it can easily be found in historical books concerned with the history of the church. These history books report the pitfalls the Church has gone through, as a help to future generations not to fall into the same heresy.

Having faulted them according to the Word of God, where I cannot find the Apostles healing women by kicking them in the face or prophesying that Jesus Himself will personally be on stage at the next meeting, I may then accuse them of heresy, but leave the judgment to God.

After that I go a step further and follow the manual God gave us.

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Regarding their false prophecy of Christ's personal appearance on stage at their next meeting, also sends me back to the manual.

"And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect." Mar 13:21- 22

After that I have God's authority which is the Word of God, to question and reject. Their rebuke will come later, from God Himself.

Finally my "Old Box" you speak of, goes right back to Genesis and I delight in it everyday. It is not the same as Pandora's box, but I do pull things out of it that astound, amaze and thrills me almost daily.

I trust that this limited exposure, describing how to rightly divide the Word of God will help you to stand boldly as you also witness for the truth.
Your Friend in Christ - Ron

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on July 31, 2008 at 7:53am

What appears to be the issue we are trying to deal with here is what does true Biblical Christianity look like? Is it the little white church on the corner where every one attends on Sunday Morning with their children all dressed up to sing a few songs, say a few prayers and go back to their lives in the world until they once again come back to church the following Sunday and do the same thing over and over until they are finally brought out in a box and buried in the cemetery in back of the church.

I believe there are many Christians who would say yes, this is what church is suppose to be, it is just something we do as a family, the same as going out to eat once a week.

So now we have a new church that has come to town. This church has a 1and a half hour services and even a Sunday school. Can you believe it they even have a mid week service. The services are louder and the people who go to this church even tell other people about their faith.

The people in the first church started saying the second church must be a cult or something because even teenagers wanted to go to it.

Well this the description of my mothers family of the first church. Then I got saved and started going to this Word of Life Bible Club and to church 2 times a week. I can still remember my grandmother grilling me about it, making sure I wasn't a Mooney or something.

The thing is that this new church I was going to was very legalistic, traditional church.
To most Christians it would have been considered very dry and not their cup of tea.

They were very Biblical and taught us to memorize scripture, and I love the people there 30 years later.
But I never could find victory in my life because they did not preach the full Gospel. I grew up and moved, then I became a member of a new church that the my church could not see eye to eye with.

It was in this new church that I received the teaching that the former church had excluded that brought freedom into my life.

We have to make sure that our church is embracing all of the truth of the Word of God and not just the parts we like or feel comfortable about. I contend that as long as we have a good foundation of Biblical truth our structures can be different. If we study church history we see great changes taking place. Most of the time the institutional church would not except these changes and even sought to kill and destroy those who would dare to bring reformation, Like Luther, Tyndale, Booth,Wesley, Fenny, Roberts, etc.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Deborah Sue Schenfeld on July 31, 2008 at 7:11pm

Thank you for trying to understand what I meant & where I'm coming from. Back to the original question~The gospel, is it the same one preached by our Chuch Fathers? We need, I think, to identify 'WHICH' early church Fathers we are talking about? Are we talking about the Acts church, who waited on a word from God to tarry for REAL power & the manifest Presence of Almighty God? Are we talking about Emp. Constantine, who gave us many of our church rituals today, taken from pagan religions? Are we speaking of the Popes? Of Martin Luther? Or are we speaking of the great men of our own denominations, who got a great revelation from God & decided that was the WHOLE truth & build walls around their doctrines, to protect themselves from any NEW truth, that might lure their sheep from THEIR fold?
I LOVE the WORD of GOD, I do, but I fear that some with a wonderful 'head-knowledge' of it, place it on a thone ABOVE the ONE it's supose to lead us into RELATIONSHIP with! I LOVE the Body of Christ, but I'm telling you, change is COMING! God is NOT content with the way we do church; with the pride & the arrogance, the selfishness & lack of love! We push people away with the very words we mean to convince them with. We need to be REAL with people, not walking Bible encyclopedias! I don't mean to be unkind or contenious. I just don't think anyone will be won or edified, if this turns into a 'WORD' war. (I'll understand if you don't want to post this.)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on August 1, 2008 at 1:46am

Hi Deborah,
There is no contention.
We are saying the same things in a different way. Both of us are concerned about the manner the church operates in.
When we talk about the Church, it is a collection of Believers,who acknowledge Jesus Christ as it's head. We believe that the entire Bible is it's manual as to how the church should operate. Because the manual does not change, neither should the Church.
Each and evey person has the right to interpret it as they understand the Scriptures.
Our problem is that the church is being robbed of it's zeal.
Indifference has turned the church into a club.
At present the church seems unable to find a middle road, between
"The starched collars" and the "Teeny Boppers"
I think that we do owe a tremendous amount of recognition to the
WyCliffes, Luthers.Tyndales etc. Today if we step out of line we get a collection of frowns.. In those days they knew they would be burnt at the stake as their reward. I believe their motives were to free men rather than entrap them.
OK! Thank you for your Post, we are here to learn and it is the differing views and not so much the Agreements that help and encourage us to take a second look at what we believe.
Your Friend in Christ - Ron.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Deborah Sue Schenfeld on August 1, 2008 at 2:21am

O.K. I will agree that we have a lot more in common than what we disagree on. Your gift is apologetics & I'm a nurturer & one who prays for positive CHANGE, (or restoration, but NOT back to the things that weren't right in the first place!) It takes a multitute of very different parts to make a Body. (You know the scripture about the "Eye saying to the hand..." 1 Cor. ahh... It's late, don't make me get out my concordance, I know how to use it! LOL!)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Alan on July 31, 2008 at 6:25pm

“A generation of Christians reared among push buttons and automatic machines is impatient of slower and less direct methods of reaching their goals. We have been trying to apply machine-age methods to our relations with God. We read our chapter, have our short devotions, and rush away, hoping to make up for our deep inward bankruptcy by attending another gospel meeting or listening to another thrilling story told by a religious adventurer lately returned from afar. The tragic results of this spirit are all about us. Shallow lives, hollow religious philosophies, the preponderance of the element of fun in gospel meetings, the glorification of men, trust in religious externals, quasi-religious fellowships, salesmanship methods, the mistaking of dynamic personality for the power of the Spirit; these and such are the symptoms of an evil disease, a deep and serious malady of the soul”. –(-A. W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God [1948])
"Why do people in churches seem like cheerful, brainless tourists on a package tour of the Absolute?...On the whole I do not find Christians, outside of the catacombs, sufficiently sensible of conditions. Does anyone have the foggiest idea of what sort of power we so blithely invoke? Or, as I suspect, does no one believe a word of it? The churches are children playing on the floor with their chemistry sets, mixing up batches of TNT to kill a Sunday morning. It is madness to wear ladies' straw hats and velvet hats to church; we should all be wearing crash helmets. Ushers should issue life preservers and signal flares; they should lash us to our pews. For the sleeping god may wake someday and take offense, or the waking god may draw us out to where we can never return." (Annie Dillard in Teaching a Stone to Talk).
Ray Stedman says,
“When we are changed from within, when the inside of the cup is cleansed, our entire outlook on human relationships changes. Our natural inclination, when confronted with conflict and mistreatment, is to respond with "an eye for an eye." But Jesus calls us to a new kind of response: "Bless those who persecute you." This is the response the apostle Paul calls us to when he writes, "Live in harmony with one another..Repay no one evil for evil...Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" (Rom. 12:14-21).
The message God has entrusted to the church is the most revolutionary message the world has ever heard. Should we now surrender that message in favor of mere political and social action? Should we content ourselves with allowing the church to become just another worldly political or social organization? Do we believe God enough to agree with Him that it is Christ like love, lived out in the koinonia-community of His church that will change the world--not political power or social agendas?
God calls us to become individually responsible to spread the radical, revolutionary, life-transforming good news of Jesus Christ throughout society. The church must again invade commercial and industrial life, education and learning, the arts and family life, government and our social institutions with this tremendous, transforming, unequaled message. The risen Lord Jesus Christ has come among us to implant His own never-ending life within us. He is ready and able to transform us into loving, compassionate, confident people, empowered to cope with any problem, any challenge life sets before us. That is our message to a weary, fearful, sorrowing world. That is the message of love and hope we bring to a hostile and despairing world.
We exist to reflect God's holiness; to reveal God's glory, and witness to the fact that Jesus has come to cleanse men and women, inside and out. We exist to love one another, and to demonstrate Christ like love to the world. That is our purpose.” (Ray C. Stedman, Body Life)


"Who is this that looks forth like the dawn, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army with banners?" (Song 6:10)

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page