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Who goes to hell? Who goes to heaven?
I'd like us to look at the following verses and then I'll point out why my question and maybe someone knows some other verses that might give some more information I've missed that might help clarify this.
- Deuteronomy 1:39 And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.
- James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
- Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
- John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
- John 14:6 “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, except through Me.”
- Acts 4:12 “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
- Luke 18:26-27 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
- John 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
- John 10:29 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
- Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
- Psalm 32:1 Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
- Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
- Romans 1:18-20 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
- Romans 7:8-9 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
- John 15:22-25 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’
There's always the debate as to whether there is an age of accountability. And as much as I like the information I usually find at GotQuestions, I disagree with their assessment. They claim Scripture is clear and that we're sinners at birth and even newborns go to hell if they die at birth. No wonder some people believe God is cruel! The first 3 passages above actually provide the evidence of the age of accountability and I find they're perfectly clear on this.
Secondly, we know that numbers 4-6 above tell us how to be saved after reaching accountability by going through Christ.
Through #7, we know that only God chooses who He reveals Himself to. He is the only one who makes salvation possible. Jesus Himself bears this out in 8 & 9.
And prior to Christ, God also clearly counted some as righteous as He did Abram in #10.
So only God forgives our transgressions and doesn't hold us accountable until we know. Numbers 11 & 12 say sins can be forgiven. And we can believe in God because He reveals Himself through His creation as told in #13.
So now comes my question...
Knowing that:
- God is the only one who chooses whom He will save
- He counted some as righteous based on their faith in Him
- We know of Him through His creation
- He sent Jesus to earth to be the final sin sacrifice and give us a free gift by believing in Him
- Even Jesus couldn't choose us but God chooses who He gives to Him...
So now go back up and read numbers 14 & 15. You might already see by this what I'm getting to.
I've always believed what is taught, that no one gets to heaven unless they believe in Jesus and repent, but only if they're accountable. But in seeing all this, could it be possible that God still doesn't hold those who don't know accountable?
Bear with me here...
Unless there's something in Scripture I haven't seen yet, in every passage I've seen hell being referenced, it has to do with the wicked. Even Abraham pleaded with God for anyone who was righteous in Sodom. And we know God judges the heart.
So could it just possibly be that those who haven't heard of Christ yet still believe in a creator, who sin like all of us but aren't choosing to act wickedly, could they still fall under God's mercy and choosing by what's in their heart, and that He might count them as righteous?
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Permalink Reply by pfuller on
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I appreciate your seeking an answer. I too have had these questions as my son, who is now 14, is severely disabled and has been from birth. Mentally (according to the 'experts') he is in the 9 to 12 month developmental area. My heart was heavy in not knowing if he would be saved. I took heart and peace from the following scripture:
Mark 2:2 (KJV)
[2] And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
[3] And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
[4] And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
[5] When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Shared from PocketBible for Windows Store (http://www.laridian.com)
I began talking to him about the Gospel. We pray together, we worship together. I now trust that through Jesus, God hears this mother's pleas for the saving of His creation.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Seek,
I see your question as two separate things.
1) age of accountability?
2) can anyone be saved without being preached the gospel?
1) Age of accountability. This example in the OT of David... HE murdered Uriah because he was in love with Bathsheba (sounds like a soap opera). David was certain that he would see his boy again....clearly the boy never had the opportunity to even know God or believe in him even by Old Testament standards. I take this as an example of God's mercy for those who are under the age of accountability.
2 Samuel 12
7Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’
11“This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’ ”
13Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”
Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt fora the Lord, the son born to you will die.”
15After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackclothb on the ground. 17The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18On the seventh day the child died. David’s attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, “While the child was still living, he wouldn’t listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.”
19David noticed that his attendants were whispering among themselves, and he realized the child was dead. “Is the child dead?” he asked.
“Yes,” they replied, “he is dead.”
20Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
21His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”
22He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
2) Can anyone be saved without being preached the gospel and accepting Jesus.
You gave the verses that answer this question... I believe the answer is no.. BUT.... I do believe that people who believe in a creator and try to live righteously will be given every opportunity. God will open opportunities for them to hear about Jesus. I think this is partly where we see God's mercy in action.
We have to admit our sin.
1 John 1
"5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from allb sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."
We have to know who we are accountable to.
Romans 10
11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”f
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”g
Isaiah 65
1“I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,’
To a nation which did not call on My name.Romans 10
16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”19But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION,
BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU.”20And Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.” (emphasis mine)21But as for Israel He says, “ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”
No one can trust in themselves for salvation. Quite often people who live 'good' lives are simply trusting in themselves for salvation... ie: "I believe there's a God, I'll go to heaven, I'm a good person"
There's one way to heaven.. Jesus Christ.
However, I believe God's mercy is far more than we can articulate or even imagine, and for people who are babies, or disabled, I believe there is mercy.
Blessings, Carla
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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I believe that last verse solidifies my belief in the age of accountability.
But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”How will he go to him except after death?
I believe the answer is no.. BUT.... I do believe that people who believe in a creator and try to live righteously will be given every opportunity.
This is what I'm sorta reading from these passages. But without the given every opportunity part. I am wondering if God still accredits those who believe in God and understand He's greater than we could imagine and that we can't live a life worthy of that. But they may not have the specifics about Jesus or heard any Scripture. There are still places that have not seen a Bible, cut off from society. I was also thinking of the Samaritan woman at the well. Jesus acknowledged that they worshipped. But while they knew there was a creator, they didn't know what the Jews knew...who God is. Yet they knew He existed and worshipped. And Jesus says the time was coming that the true worshipers will worship in spirit and truth. Those are the worshipers He seeks. And this woman was worshiping and desired to worship the true God and Creator. And considering God's grace and mercy (He'll have mercy on whom He chooses), if that woman died that day, before His death and resurrection, I could see Him accrediting her faith in the existence of God and desire to worship as righteousness.
There's a likeness between both questions in that both the young or mentally ill don't yet "know" and some people may not "know"...maybe didn't ever hear the Gospel before they died. And it's what's in their heart He's going to look at and judge them on. -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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And it's what's in their heart He's going to look at and judge them on.
Therein lies the problem ... what is in the heart of s spiritually dead person who is born with a sinful nature and is not regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Is it a good heart? Is it a godly heart? Is it a heart for God? is it a new heart?
Food for thought.
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Everyone is born with a sinful nature, but not everyone is proud of it or wants to act on it. Before Christ sent the Holy Spirit to help us, God still forgave some and counted them as righteous because of their faith in God. He was looking at the heart of people who knew there was one God and knew He created them and that they were sinful. I just can't see Him acting in this manner then deciding to no longer do it. He doesn't change. He's always been merciful to the real worshippers. Jesus told the Samaritan woman: Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
He's always sought true worshipers. It's just something I started wondering about as different passages seemed to point to the possibility. -
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This is a highly debatable issue. I personally am not convinced regarding the age of accountability. The new life requires a new birth. We are born with the sin nature and require a transformation. We are not born innocent, but are already tainted. The age of accountability assumes that ignorance is an excuse, but yet the sin nature reveals itself early on. Put one toy in a sandbox with two average two to three year old children ... what happens? They share the one toy and play in perfect harmony ... no. They will often fight over the one toy because there is a selfish nature already existing in them. They are not taught this selfishness, it is already there.
Regarding those who have never heard. This goes back to the same principle as above. We are born with a sin nature separated from God with only one hope. The concept of fair is not even a valid argument, for true fairness as dictated by man would be that when Adam and Eve sinned God should have destroyed them in the garden, but instead He provided one, only one, way out of the new situation that included a sin nature that was spiritually dead to God and could only be quickened through Jesus Christ.
Both of these issues weigh heavy on people's hearts. If we say that there is no age of accountability and those who have not heard are separated from God we are viewed as heartless. What we must remember is that our heart and thoughts do not dictate what God has chosen as His method of redeeming lost man.
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The reasons you've stated are pretty much the ones that GotQuestions used to lay out their reason to believe babies go to hell. My concerns with it though...nothing in Scripture specifically says this nor the opposite. Yet one thing we do know is that we know very little. ;-)
So I go then to the nature of God as exhibited through Jesus. I think you responded to something I'd posted about another person saying we shouldn't think about the cross and my thoughts on what thinking about the cross meant to me. Well considering what Jesus voluntarily went through so we could have an advocate, it just seems like such a great love from someone who wouldn't have mercy on babies. He went through it because He does show mercy and because He does love us. But I also combine that with that first verse. And I see separate definitions. Yes we have a sin "nature". But this is where the age of accountability question comes in. Sin "nature" or sin "conscious"? That first verse covers sin conscious... your children who do not yet know good from bad.
And because of this accountability and sin nature vs. sin conscious, I got to looking at the other passages above. And so I'm wondering if God gives some to Christmas (Who is then their advocate before the throne), even though they may not have actually heard the Gospel specifically or reached an age of understanding it.
I know one thing Scripture is clear about too and it's remaining hopeful. Parents living in fear that their baby or toddler, etc. will be eternally tormented and there's no way around it, it doesn't do much to instill hope or make His yoke easy and burdens light. So I guess in order to hope, we're better off remembering that only God knows. We just have to remember the "for God so loved" part.
And I'm stopping here and hoping it makes sense since I've nodded off at least 3 times now. :-o
I still haven't read Carla's post. You'd think I'd be awake by now. I've slept since Sunday. Just getting over a nasty flu. -
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Permalink Reply by Jim on
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The way i see it for the babies and the people who never knew of God will be. givin a chance to learn of. Jesus and of God.
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II Samuel 12:19-24
19. But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20. Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21. Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22. And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23. But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
24. And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him.Since in verse 23 David stated that he would go to the child but the child could not return to him. In Hebrews David is include with those whose faith is counted to them as righteousness. David then being righteous went or will go to Heaven and the child will be there. For me this makes it clear that babies go to Heaven.
The mentally retarded are retarded in various degrees. Some can understand the gospel and choose the Lord. Some have no understanding and are innocent like the baby. I have won a few mentally retarded people to the Lord. Thank you.
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