All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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I'm with you there Roy. If I could only worship with people who believed everything exactly as I do, I'd never attend church.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Sorry Jon,
If I said Armenian I meant Arminian. An Armenian is from Armenia. An Arminian is one who basically believes the following:
Man has a free will to choose or reject God
They believe in conditional election rather than unconditional
Universal Atonement rather than Limited Atonement
Resistable Grace rather than irresistable grace
Man can Fall from Grace (not all believe this)
It's actually a subject not much worth discussing other than simply learning the different views of believing Christians. What is so critical is that we understand we are saved through faith in Christ regardless of how we got there. There are five basic points of the faith that are very important. These points are (probably among others) 1) the inerrancy of Scripture, 2) the virgin birth, 3) the deity of Christ, 4) His complete atoning work on the cross for those who believe and 5) His physical resurrection and His bodily return.
So, where are you on these important issues?
As far as your question:
Were you baptized to receive the forgiveness of your sins? Or do you believe that you were sinless due to your "belief" in Him when you were baptized to show the congregation your faith?
I absolutely do not believe that I am sinless. I do believe I am forgiven and made righteous by the atoning work of Jesus on the cross. I was not baptized to receive forgiveness of sins. I was baptized because He commanded me to be baptized. My act was an act of obedience and submission.I am not offended. I am with all who believe in Jesus as God and Savior.
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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You have it exactly right, but you misunderstand still. I have said here many times that there there is no power in the water to do anything. All the power is in the Blood of Christ. Baptism saves us the same way the waters saved Noah. Through the grace of God. But if Noah had not obeyed, he would not have been saved by the waters of the flood, he would have been killed like all the other people on Earth.
Everyone in the world is lost, because everyone in the world has sinned. It is that sin that sets us apart from God. Baptism is simply the commanded door through which we must walk to reach the Blood of Christ. But if we choose to ignore the command, or fail to walk through that door, we will be stay in our lost state.
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(sorry this was posted out of order, but I couldn't get it to reply directly to your post)
Roy, you gave the following list as central pillars of the faith:
1) the inerrancy of Scripture,
2) the virgin birth,
3) the deity of Christ,
4) His complete atoning work on the cross for those who believe and
5) His physical resurrection and His bodily return.
I believe in all the things you listed, but simply add the Biblical command to be baptized to #4.
I believe that the Bible is very clear that if you were baptized for any reason other than for the forgiveness of sin, you just got wet. There is a tremendous significance to how we get to salvation. It has to be God's way. No other way will get us there.
Almost everyone in this forum keeps telling me that baptism can't have anything to do with salvation, but no one has given me any explanation of why Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, and Romans 6:4 don't mean that baptism is required for salvation. I understand that many verses only mention faith in connection with salvation, and many verses only mention belief in connection with salvation, and some verses only mention repentance in connection with salvation, and some only mention confessing the Lordship of Jesus in connection with salvation, and some only mention baptism in connection with salvation. Then there are some which mention more than one of them together, but not always the same ones. Which verse is right? Which step, or group of steps is required? If we both believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, then all of them must be right (otherwise there is a error in Scripture). If all of them must be right, then we must believe, repent, confess that Jesus is Lord, and be baptized; all before we will be saved.
I don't understand how some people can see everything there except baptism. I know it is Satan blinding people's eyes, but it is so very clear when you read it. It was perfectly clear up until Martin Luther wrote "Sola Fide" in the margin of his Bible in the early 1500s (I know he was a catholic priest, and I know the catholic cult has done great harm to the Church, but that is where the "faith only" belief began from what I have seen in my research). Please go back and reread the verses I have quoted many times in this forum. Read what God says, frequently through Jesus' own mouth, about the necessity, and urgency, of baptism for the remission (or washing away) of your sins.
Finally, I was not trying to say that you had never sinned, but if you sins have been forgive, you are sinless in God's eyes. All the sins that have been forgiven have been laid on Jesus back. He carried them on the Cross and we carry them no more. But they are not washed away until we are in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4). So you could not have been saved before you were baptized, as you say. The new life of being cleansed from our sins doesn't start until we are resurrected with Jesus. That only happens after we die with Jesus (you cannot be resurrected until you have died), and the death happens in baptism.
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All the power is in the Blood of Christ. Baptism saves us the same way the waters saved Noah. Through the grace of God. But if Noah had not obeyed, he would not have been saved by the waters of the flood, he would have been killed like all the other people on Earth.
Jon, I thought you were saying you had to be baptized to be saved. Yet even still this is how you're putting them together.
In the little scenario I gave, you said the person would be cast into outer darkness because he'd just been saved but had nowhere to be baptized, perhaps until they setup the baptismal and filled it next week. This person may also have heard about Christ yet never been taught baptism or read the Bible.
So to say they'd be cast into outer darkness would completely negate the grace of God. One may even read Scripture on baptism but not yet had their eyes open to its significance. But this is why God looks at the heart. It's why He sent Christ. He wants everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth. He knows those who have accepted Him and made Him their Lord. He knows those who study Scripture seeking truth. He knows those who have accepted them yet don't fully understand at the moment. In simpler terms, it's why He didn't send the flood until Noah had time to build the ark. That is God's grace. Not some letter of the law.
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Jon,
I'm not sure where this reply will go. You are here saying that all who have not been baptized in water are lost. Part of your reasoning is taken from a few verse in Scripture that you want to stand alone. However, no single verse stands alone. It may surprise you that I do believe that baptism does save us but it is not the symbolical event that takes place after salvation that you consider baptism.
For instance, when Peter visited the house of Cornelius and preached Christ, the hearers believed. Upon believing they were filled or baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in other tongues. I personally cannot imagine the Holy Spirit filling an unclean vessel. They were filled which is an anointing that marks them as belonging to Christ eternally. After they were filled with the Holy Spirit they took them out and baptized in water which is the way we still do it today. The tongues were proof that they had been filled. While I do not believe tongues are necessary unto salvation, I do believe baptism is.
Next, you mention that no one is answering your objections like we are ignoring certain verses that command us to be baptized. No one is questioning whether or not we are commanded to be baptized. Yet the baptism that is conducted upon us by man is only symbolical of that which has already taken place if the person is truly born again.
For instance, you continue to use Acts 2:38 where we are instructed to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Why are we not instructed to believe? This is not a formula unto salvation but all that believe and do this, will be saved. Scripture fully without any question documents that salvation is by grace through faith. In particular cases, Paul would not baptize. It was important for all to believe that salvation was by grace through faith.
We could spend weeks and weeks discussing this. I am choosing not to for I have already run into others just like you and feel the discussion is fruitless. I cannot convince you. However, I am solid in my belief as I have said in the beginning that all who believe in Christ are saved from their sins. We are commanded to obey Christ's commands but that does not make me a child of God or sustain me as a child of God. I am His child simply because I believe in Him. All who believe are saved from their sins. All who do not believe are damned.
Symbolism does not save anyone from anything. Religious efforts do not save us. Religious symbols do not save us. I can take communion everyday but will not be saved unless I believe and partake in communion in faith.
You must take all of Scripture and Scripture fully documents that salvation is by grace through faith - and even that is not from yourself. It is a gift of God. Not by works, lest anyone should boast.
Works are good but do nothing to make us children of God. Only faith gives us that right. All others will be cast out.
Blessings to you. I personally am finished from this discussion.
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Seek,
Please don't misunderstand what I am saying. Everyone has sinned, and is cut off from God by that sin. Jesus shed His Blood, and died so that we could have the possibility of salvation from the death that sin requires. But He set conditions for receiving that salvation. The things we are commanded to do, do not earn salvation. Nothing we do can pay God back for the sacrifice of His Son. But that does not eliminate the requirement of our obedience to receive the blessing.
"In the little scenario I gave, you said the person would be cast into outer darkness because he'd just been saved but had nowhere to be baptized."
You are the one that said he was saved, but had nowhere to be baptized. I said that Scripture says he was not saved, because he didn't find some way to be baptized. I make no claims on my own. I only tell you what Scripture says.
It is the responsibility of those of us who know the truth to seek out those who want to learn the truth, but have only learned in part, and teach them the full truth. Read Acts 19. Paul comes across a group of people who had only heard of John (the Baptizer)'s teaching. Paul then taught them the full truth, and baptized them into the name of Jesus.
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Everyone has sinned, and is cut off from God by that sin. Jesus shed His Blood, and died so that we could have the possibility of salvation from the death that sin requires. But He set conditions for receiving that salvation. The things we are commanded to do, do not earn salvation. Nothing we do can pay God back for the sacrifice of His Son. But that does not eliminate the requirement of our obedience to receive the blessing.
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
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Roy, if you read the story of Cornelius' conversion in chapter 11, verse 15 says that the Holy Spirit fell on the family "As I started speaking...". They had not heard the message because Peter had just started speaking the Gospel to them. What does verse 17 and 18 say was the purpose of the Spirit coming on Cornelius' family? To show Peter, and later all the Apostles, that God would accept the Gentiles into the Church, so it was ok for them to be baptized for forgiveness of their sin.
You said, "Yet the baptism that is conducted upon us by man is only symbolical of that which has already taken place if the person is truly born again." But, when does Scripture say we are born again? Romans 6:4 says we are born again "in baptism".
They were not instructed to believe in Acts 2:38 because it says they already believed. In verse 37 it says, "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart (believed), and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do." (My comment)
You are correct, Salvation is by "grace through faith". And James 2 says that faith is only complete if it includes works. We are saved by grace through our obedience to God's commands. Those commands include believing, repenting, confessing Jesus as Lord, and being baptized "for the remission of sins".
I am sorry to see you leave the discussion. I know I don't know you, but I want only what is good for you. I, like Jesus, don't want anyone to perish, but I know that it does happen because of the hardness of men's hearts. I know you believe you are saved. I know you think all we have to do is say in our heart "God, come into my heart. I believe that Jesus died for my sins, and I want Him to take mine away." For your sake, I really wish that was what Scripture taught. But it does not. In fact, James 2:24 says exactly the opposite. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
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Seek,
I am not looking for a battle with anyone. However, I do agree with you. I cannot imagine any scenario whatsoever where one of God's children will be cast aside. You are right - perhaps the individual may face some serious discipline but I can assure you that Jesus will get us all to the finish line. Those who do not belong to Him will fall away at some point. They will not make it. Jesus came to do the Father's will and that is that He will not lose one of all that the Father has given Him.
John 6:38-40 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." NIV
I am not trusting in myself to get me home. I will fail and fail and fail again. My faith is in Christ and in Him alone. He has come to get us and take us home to be with Him forever. We all will make it. He has taken it upon Himself to get us there. My trust is in Him. I know that He is able and I know He will do it. I get this same sense from you. I think it is silly to think that He has left something for us to do to go home with Him. If he left it to us, none of us would make it. No, we will endure for He will carry us during those weak times. He came to get us and get us He will do. I trust Him completely.
My faith is in Christ and in Him alone. Seek, we are headed home.
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If "all will make it", why did Jesus Himself say that "On that day, many will say to me Lord, Lord, ... but I will say to them, 'I never knew you'.
You say you "think it is silly to think that He has left something for us to do to go home with Him." That is you putting your own opinion into God's plan for our salvation. Don't put your own thinking in. Only trust to what God said. He did not leave it up to us to find the path, He wrote it plain for all who are willing to humble themselves to His will to read.
Read ALL of scripture. Quit picking and choosing among the Scriptures to find the verses that agree with your preconceptions. Scripture does not contradict itself. God will not accept rebellious people who want to have His salvation their own way.
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