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Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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I've been studying Revelation for awhile and plan to post a torch on it sometime in the future. There's a lot to digest. Before posting anything though, I want to get my facts completely in line. But so far I can tell you, I believe I have an explanation on Paul's comments that I'll cover at that time.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Jon,
It is true. There are many things we are called to do once we have believed. I personally believe that Christ has done everything required for our salvation. So, why are we called to obedience? First of all, God loves us and lovingly trains us in the way we should go. God illustrates family to us in our own families. I have five children. I trained them the best I could to walk in His ways. I did this out of love and it worked. But, being my child was not dependent on their success of how well they followed my instructions. They have no worry about losing their position as my child.
What makes us children of God is our faith in Christ. If our position in Christ was dependent on our success to do all He demands, we would all fail. That is why part of our relationship with Him is so dependent of His loving forgiveness. However, that does not mean that we do not face consequences when we fail to obey. He loves us too much to let us get away with things. He disciplines us because He loves us. His discipline is proof to us of His love.
Our differences are somewhat somatic. I only replied to your indicating that faith in Christ alone does not save us. I disagree but I certainly understand where you are coming from. When you read about all the things we must do you see that as necessary unto salvation. When I read those things, I see them as things I had better do or I am going to get into a lot of trouble. However, I don't believe that trouble includes losing my position as a child of Christ. For that, I believe Jesus has paid it all leaving no payment necessary from me. He has paid in full everything necessary for my eternal adoption. I received that through faith in Him.
There are some things we disagree on but we agree that we must obey. I grew up with the fear of losing my salvation. I am not going back there. I am a believer in Christ and believe I have been saved from death and hell.
Will we endure to the end? Yes, if we are really trusting in Christ. I am confident He will get us home. If our faith is not truly in Christ but in some religious thinking, we will fall. Only believers stand in Christ. All non-believers will fall even if they are working to follow all the commands. We only have standing in Christ. We cannot stand on our works. Yet, we are called unto holiness, unto diligence, unto obedience. But, we still stand by faith in Christ.
I don't think our differences are as far apart as you might think. We both must work 'till He comes.
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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Let me give an example of what I am trying to communicate.
Let us say you want to go to the Moon. It is impossible for you to climb a rope all the way there. You do not have the power or ability to make it all the way to the Moon on your own. In the same way, we do not have the power or ability to live sinlessly or to cleanse ourselves of our sins once we have sinned.
So you need a vehicle that will take you to the Moon. You need a rocket. That rocket is Jesus Blood. Only it can cleanse your sins and make you acceptable to God.
Now you believe that a rocket will take you to the Moon. But the rocket is in Florida. You are in Georgia. First you must learn that there are rockets (you hear the Word). Next you must turn your car away from whatever way you were going and drive to Florida (repent). Next, you must (here my analogy breaks down slightly because there I can come up with no analogy to our commanded confession), Confess that Jesus is the Christ, and finally you must get on the rocket (be baptized). Now you are in the rocket that well take you to the Moon (saved).
Jesus gave you the rocket (His Blood), and He drives the rocket to make sure you get to the Moon safely. But we must get on it. Where do I find that we must get on the rocket (be baptized)? In Romans 6:3-4 we are told, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” We meet Jesus Blood in the water so that His Blood washes away our sins, and we rise out of the water to a new life. Without that death of the old and birth of the new, the rocket will not take us to the Moon. Only the reborn can get to the moon (John 3:3).
Does that help?
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John 19:33-34
but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
We are baptized with blood and water by faith in Christ.
Revelation 7:14
I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Jesus blood washes our robes...outward washing not done by water.
John 6:53-54
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Baptism with water does not give us eternal life.
Acts 1:5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The Lord baptizes us with the Holy Ghost, showing that baptism is not a reference just to water.
1 Corinthians 12:13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Not by one Creek, Lake, river or pool on the church stage. This shows baptism is by the Spirit.
Exodus 12:14 “This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to theLord—a lasting ordinance.
Luke 22:19
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
God uses symbolism throughout Scripture so we do not forget events or to depict outwardly what had already been done.
If there's any doubt remaining as to whether or not water baptism is a requirement of salvation or merely symbolic, check out 1 Peter 3:21.
This this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
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In your last quote, what is the symbol and what is being symbolized? Baptism is the object being discussed, and the Flood was the symbol that was an example of it.
Your quotes would seem to indicate that baptism was just what you say. But when you look at Romans 6:4-11. What happens at baptism in this passage? When we are baptized, we die to sin. When we rise out of the water, a renewed spiritual being rises, not the old sinful one.
You cannot take pieces of the Word, and have a full picture. That would be like only putting the border of a puzzle together and saying I finished the puzzle. The border is the easiest part of the puzzle, belief is the easiest part of salvation. Surrendering our will to God's, and giving in to His commands is the hard part.
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Just to add...
This doesn't mean we should not be baptized. It is seen as a public confession of our faith. And Jesus said if we were ashamed of Him He would be ashamed of us.
I'm actually being re-baptized this Sunday myself. New church and I've thought about it for some time. As a symbolism like Communion. -
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Baptism is not "a public confession of our faith". Read Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38. What does it say the purpose of baptism is in those verses?
Mark 16:16 - "shall be saved".
Acts 2:38 - "for the remission of sins".
We are not to get baptized to show people that we believe. It is the surrender to Gods will so that He will wash our sins away and save us.
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Seek,
Congratulations. You exemplify Christianity. I admire your toughness, your zeal, your loyalty and obedience. You are a New Testament believer.
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Jon,
I do agree with you that we are not far apart. We both believe very strongly in water baptism. Water baptism is not something that is very difficult for us to do. Overcoming our temper, shyness to share the Gospel, lust, etc. might be just a little more difficult. Jesus did come to gain for us forgiveness. I do not believe that it is necessary unto salvation as I do believe in death-bed conversions. However, we are pretty close. Because of your testimony of faith, I could easily worship with you. You would probably have problems with me but I have worshipped for many years with people I don't quite agree with. Some would label me Calvinistic but I much prefer Armenian people. I have found them to be more humble, happier, less rigid, etc. That is only a personal observation but probably not at all correct.
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I haven't studied Calvin and I don't know anything about the Armenian of whom you speak, so I don't know what you mean there.
I would worship with you because, just as Jesus spent his time around the sick (spiritually) and not the healthy, I spend a lot of time with those who have misunderstood Scripture, or have been taught falsehood. Please don't be offended by this statement. I have many of my own faults, and I struggle daily against my sinful flesh. But I know I have been obedient to His commands so far, and I am continually striving to be more like Him. Were you baptized to receive the forgiveness of your sins? Or do you believe that you were sinless due to your "belief" in Him when you were baptized to show the congregation your faith? Which does Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 say is the correct reason to be baptized?
You are right, we aren't very far apart in what we believe. I am a gun enthusiast so I will use a shooting example here. If I am off by a half inch at 10 feet, that is not very much. I still hit the target, but if my target is 1000 yards away, I will miss my target by 12 and a half feet. How much further away is Heaven than 1000 yards? By how much more would I miss Heaven if I was off by just that much here?
The difference here is the same as the difference when Moses struck the rock rather than speak to the rock in Num 20:11-12. He didn't do what God commanded (and he took the credit on himself instead of giving it to God), and so the reward promised to him by God was taken away from him.
I don't want that to happen to you. I want everyone I can reach for God to believe that Jesus is the Christ. That he died and rose the third day. I want them to come to repentance. And I want them to be baptized "for the remission of [their] sins", so that they can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. These are all commands that can be found in the Word that It says lead to salvation. If you take any of them away, you will not receive the promised blessing, but will receive the curse instead.
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I've read the Bible cover to cover quite a few times and have prayed on and studied the Scriptures. How can you be so certain you are right and all others are wrong? Christ is ALL that can save us. That is readily apparent throughout Scripture. He came so that we could have life. Water didn't come to give life.
Yes, 1 Peter 3 refers to Noah. But in context...
20 ...to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
It doesn't save you through water but through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The water saving Noah was a symbol of Baptism, and Baptism a symbol of death and resurrection. And we know baptism refers to more than just water (there's baptism by the Spirit and blood as well). There's a lot of symbolism given in Scripture.
Remember the rich man's question on what it took to be saved. He kept God's commandments but he didn't have a willingness to give up his riches. Jesus didn't tell him he had to be baptized.
The public confession of faith wasn't meant to be Scriptural. It is itself a symbol. It's a public confession.
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