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Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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You are right Carla, we cannot earn salvation. Nothing we do can be good enough to "earn" salvation. Only the Blood of the Christ was enough for that.
I am writing to say that Scripture disagrees with those who say that we are saved before the obedience. Some here have said that we are saved when we believe, and then we are obedient because of our salvation. That is not accurate according to the Bible.
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Reply by Carla
According to you Jon, what must you do to be saved?
Nothing I say is "according to Jon". I cannot save you. Scripture says I probably wouldn't even die for you. But Jesus did die for you. So I will tell you what God said through His inspired Word.
Believe
Repent
Confess
Baptized
John 3:16
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Luke 13:3
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Matt 10:32
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1 Pet 3:21
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Rom 10:9
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Mark 16:16
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Acts 2:38
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Read the verses above. What do they say? Each one says that we must do something to be saved (or to avoid punishment (Hell)). What are we commanded to do? If Scripture does not contradict Itself, then what we must do is a combination of all of those things. If we leave anything out, read Revelation 22:18-19. (I know that is taken out of context there, but it is said similarly elsewhere, that is just the most clear).
So then, we must Believe the Word, Repent of our sins, Confess that Jesus is the Christ, and be baptized. Why baptized? Because that is where we come in contact with the Blood of Jesus and our sins are forgiven (Romans 6:4).
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Do you believe one must be baptized to be saved?
see Luke 23:32-43
Also, would you mind clarifying what you mean about obedience for salvation? Are you saying that you need to be baptized to be saved, but then after believe, repent, and be baptized, you can do whatever you want. or do you have to keep being obedient? If you are disobedient in one thing...what happens to you then?
Once you earn your salvation by being baptized, can you lose your salvation by being disobedient?...and if so, what's the point of being baptized? ...and can you regain it by being obedient again?
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In Luke 23:32-43, Jesus was still alive. Anything that happened before Jesus death, burial, and resurrection was still under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was sealed with Jesus Blood. Jesus had not yet died in this passage, so the man on the cross beside Jesus was not subject to the requirements of the New Covenant.
Yes, to enter into salvation, you must obey the commands that the Bible says lead to salvation. Once you are "in Christ", 1 John 1:7 says, "but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin." The language here says that it is a continuous cleansing. Meaning that if we try to walk in the light, we are continually cleansed of the sins we commit on the way. But if we choose to walk away into darkness, the Blood of Christ will stop cleansing us until we turn back to Him.
When we read Romans 6, we are told that after we are saved, we can choose to either present ourselves to God, or we can present ourselves to sin, "as instruments of unrighteousness" (Rom 6:13). In Rom 5:19, Paul says that grace came to free us from the Law (of Moses). Then in 6:1 he asks, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid." No, we are called to strive to live in the light, knowing that we will still sin, but we are given confidence that if we continually turn toward Him, He will continually live in us. "...if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12).
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The thief on the cross saw Jesus and knew who He was. The saints in the OT did not. The thief repented and believed, and was therefore saved. Why would he say “Jesus, remember me when You come [o]in Your kingdom!”
if he didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah? The thief directly put his trust in the ONE whom he knew could save him.
Additionally, Mark 16:16 does not teach that a person must be trusted for salvation. Any one who believes that they must be baptised to be saved must ask themselves quite seriously what they are placing their trust in. Is your faith in a physical act, or is it in the finished work of Christ on the cross? Our faith must rest in Christ alone. As Ephesians 1:7 says "“We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace”
Now, having said all that, as a believer there is no reason to not be baptised. By all means....for anyone who hasn't been baptised, go get baptised and let the world know that you are living for Jesus and you want to proclaim it from the mountain tops what HE has done.... not what we have done.
Blessings, Carla
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Yes, Carla, the thief on the cross recognized that Jesus was the Messiah. That is why he made the confession that Jesus accepted.
Jesus Blood went back through all of history, and cleansed all those who were faithful to God under the Old Covenant. Thus, the thief who died under the Old Covenant was saved by Jesus there on the cross. The same does not hold for you and me. We are living after the resurrection of Jesus. We must be obedient to His commands in the New Covenant.
Consider Naaman (2 Kings 5). He went to Elisha because he wanted to be cleansed of leprosy. Elisha told him to go dip in the Jordan 7 times.
A question for you Carla, did the waters of the Jordan have the power to cleanse leprosy? No, if they did, everyone in Israel who had leprosy would have gone to dip, and be cleansed.
So Naaman was angry with the command and headed home, but his servant convinced him to go dip. When he dipped in Jordan, was he trusting in the water, or in the power of God through the command of Elisha? Obviously, he was trusting in the power of God.
So do I trust in the power of God through the command of 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16, and Acts 2:38. All three of these commands include baptism as a prerequisite to salvation.
Tell me, how does getting wet pay the price for the death of a man (let alone the death of the Son of God)? It cannot. So it cannot be a work meant to "earn" salvation. It is a commanded surrender of our will to the Will of God.
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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Hi Carla & LT,
I'm not going to speak for Jon, for I believe that his statement is well expressed.
What I will say....is that obedience is always a heart issue. I am hard pressed to find anyone who will be obedient to Christ or remain obedient to Christ if they are believing on their actions and not Christ Jesus. Our actions have already delivered a verdict of guilty and even when we think we are doing good.....our hearts are deceptive.
On the other hand tho, I sincerely believe that faith and obedience follow hand in hand, the two are not inseparable, where you find one you find the other. I do not believe in a salvation without obedience, period. Nor do I believe in a salvation without faith, period. Scripture is flush with these truths, we cannot, nor should we ever suggest that one will happen without the other.
We must continue to disciple and lead one another into the Truths that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to us.
Where I believe is the disconnect and a dangerous position to be in....is in suggesting that we as believers do not need to be fully committed to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and will be redeemed even if we don't fully follow Him.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Watchman,
No one disputes that we are called to holiness, which includes obedience. The difference is in how obedience affects our position with God. God does not overlook disobedience ... ever. The question is does disobedience/rebellion lead to loss of salvation. I believe that we can go into a season of rebellion and when we do our heavenly Father will apply divine discipline and not simply write us off.
Let me ask a question that does not need a specific answer because I am pointing it at you. Did you disobey God yesterday at least once? If yes, then you were disobedient and did not fully obey Him. A common response is that one is not enough and I repented right away. Maybe the person did repent right away, maybe not ... maybe they did not even realize they were being disobedient and ignorance is no excuse. Back to the main point ... if one act of disobedience is not enough to have God cast us aside then what number is? Is it 5, 10, 15 or repeated days, months and years?
Again, for clarity ... no one suggests that obedience is not important or that somehow we are not called to obedience. There is a motivation aspect ... out of love or out of fear, and a consequence aspect ... loss of salvation ... experience divine discipline.
I simply come from the understanding that is one who has truly been born again, regenerated that they will desire to live for Him out of love for Him and when we fail we face divine discipline of a Father who cares for His children (Hebrews 12)
Lord Bless,
LT
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LT,
It is not a matter of number of sins, or time of sinfulness. The question is where the heart is.
If you heart is pointed toward God, and you are continually trying to move toward Him, His Blood continually cleanses you of all sin (known and unknown).
But we do have the ability to turn from God and leave his grace behind. We can choose to no longer follow our first love. 2 Peter 2:20 says, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first." Clearly, these people were "saved", part of the congregation and had truly accepted Christ. But they allowed the entanglements of the World to draw them back to an unrepentant sinful life. For them, it will be worse than if they had never believed.
What will happen to them who never believe? They will be sent to Hell. How could it be worse for believers who fall back to sin, if they are in Heaven but only have a lesser reward than those who "endure"? It couldn't. So obviously, the back-sliding believer will also go to Hell, but they will know what they lost, and that they could have had Heaven if they too had endured.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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I agree fully with this position. What happens when we put salvation conditional of obedience we create an immediate problem. What is meant by obedience? LT, when you asked if we disobeyed at least once today, I would have to say, "absolutely." What person is perfect in obeying every single one of Christ's commands? We are commanded to love others as ourselves. Who does this perfectly? Obviously, we are growing in this ability but sometimes it takes years and years and truthfully most will never reach that plateau. Don't we all have just a little bit of selfishness in us? I certainly do.
What happens when we put obedience at the same level of faith, we have to create a standard (which all eventually will). Of course, all the standards are different and usually fit the person creating the standard. Differing standards include movies (R, PG13, PG or G) television programs, reading material, social drinking (no or yes), drinking, smoking, dress styles, social interactions, etc., etc. I might ask, "how much TV watching is allowed" and would get as many answers as the people I asked.
The reason Christ was punished was for all our sins. No one is fully obedient. Making obedience on an equal standing as faith as some do disqualifies all for salvation.
Speaking about the generalities of obedience causes confusion. Can someone please identify "obedience" for me. What do you mean by that term? Do you mean doing your best or successfully following all His commands.
True children of God are going to want to please Father. That will be inbred in our spirits as we are changed and become new creatures. However, the old person will not die until passing from this life to the next. At that point we will be completely free from the desire to sin which sometimes does overwhelm us.
Do I believe obedience is essential? Yes. Is it essential to our salvation. No. Faith in Christ alone saves us from our sin and puts us in right standing with God. Good works will follow since He has created us for that.
Should a person be baptized? Absolutely. During my lifetime I have only had one person that refused baptism. All the others were happy to be baptized. I would question a person's faith (but not discount altogether) if he or she refused baptism. Of course, I am not the final or even a judge. Christ will separate believers and unbelievers.
Christ strongly disapproved of Phariseeism. Phariseeism leads to legalism which must be avoided. We are commanded to teach new disciples to obey the commands of Christ. I know this doesn't come with exceptions. However, it is important that those being taught understand that it is not something that happens in a short time with any of us. It is a lifelong process. Even Paul when approaching the end of his life confessed that the still had not obtained perfect obedience. But, he was still striving which is what we must do. He speaks of pressing on. This is a very positive optimistic statement. It is proof of faith. We are going to get there. We know He will never give up on us. He is going to get us home. We press on as a result of faith. We don't give up for our faith is in Christ and not in ourselves. He gets all the glory - all the praise.
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Roy,
Obedience is part of faith, just like breathing is a part of life. Read James 2. What does James say about works? Without works, "Faith is DEAD." Not works of the Law. Works of the Law of Moses were what the Israelites believed would save them. They believed that if they kept the commandments, they would be saved. That is what Paul talks about in most of his letters. Everywhere you see it written that Works will not save you, what is being talked about? Works of the Law. But that does not negate the necessity of works of Obedience. Works of Obedience is what James is talking about.
There is no new standard created by requiring us to take some actions to be pleasing to God. An example I gave recently (and I will give it again here), was going to the Moon. You, with all your strength and power, could never make it to the Moon on your own. You need a rocket to get there. Jesus Blood is the rocket. Now the rocket is in Florida, but you are in Georgia driving your car north. First you must know of the rocket (someone teaches you the Word). Next you must believe it. Then you must turn your car around and drive to Florida (repent of your sins). Next, you must give the "password" to the guard at the rocket (confess your belief that Jesus is the Christ). Finally, you must get on the rocket (be baptized). Now you are on the rocket that will take you to the Moon. You are "saved".
Without these steps, which Scripture says lead to salvation, you cannot get on the rocket.
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