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Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Jon,
I just want to understand something you said. You said:
So saying that believing that Jesus is the Son of God will save us is proven false.
Are you then saying that faith in Christ as God's Son is not sufficient unto salvation? If so, how do you reconcile the words from Him that says that all who believe in Him will not die - well, let me let Him say it:
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. NIV
So, are you telling me that this is not true? I am reading that the qualification here for eternal life is believing in His one and only Son.
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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I am saying that you cannot take one verse, ie: John 3:16, and decide that that is all that is required for salvation. Scripture does not contradict itself. Therefore, if it says in John 3:16 that all who believe on Him should have eternal life, and then in Mark 16:16 it says, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved." there is no contradiction. We must be baptized as well as believing that Jesus is the Christ.
Yes we must believe. We all agree on that. We must believe that Jesus is God's son, died on the cross, was buried, and arose the third day. That is the gospel. But we cannot ignore verses like Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16.
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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Jon, don’t get your baptisms confused with each other, there are at least 2 types of baptisms.
One is by water, the other is being baptized in the holy Spirit. Or baptized into Christ. One is physical, or ceremonial the other is spiritual, by faith. There are some that believe that water baptism saves a person, but water baptism is symbolic of your death, burial and resurrection with Jesus Christ. Just believing that Jesus died, and rose again doesn’t save you either. Believing in Him, or on Him for salvation brings you into the family of God. The bible says that the devils believe and tremble.
James 2:19 (KJV)
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.QT. I am saying that you cannot take one verse, ie: John 3:16, and decide that that is all that is required for salvation. Scripture does not contradict itself. Therefore, if it says in John 3:16 that all who believe on Him [for salvation] should have eternal life, and then in Mark 16:16 it says, "He who believes and is baptized [Baptized into Christ ] shall be saved. there is no contradiction. We must be baptized as well as believing that Jesus is the Christ. [brackets and emphisis mine for clarity]
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is Christ in you.Pr. 16:25
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.JB
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I believe it is you who have your baptisms confused. Eph 4:3-6 says "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (emphasis mine)
The baptism of the Holy Spirit only happened twice. Once on the day of Pentecost. Here the Spirit came on the Apostles with power to give them to tools to spread the Gospel. The second (and last) time was when Peter went to Cornelius. In Acts 10 starting in verse 34 through 47 with special emphasis on verses 44 and 47. It is too long to quote here, but I will summarize. Peter comes to Cornelius at the direction of the Spirit and begins preaching the Gospel to him and his family. While he is still preaching (Acts 11 says "As I began to speak"), The Spirit fell on everyone there, including the Gentiles. Peter asks, "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water." Later, when he is giving an account to the other Apostles in Jerusalem, Peter tells them the story and they reply in Acts 11:17-18, "'So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?' When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, 'So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.'"
Thus we see that the reason for the Spirit coming on Cornelius and his family was to show the Apostles that the Gentiles had been accepted by God for admission into the Church. There were only two groups of people at that time, Jews and Gentiles, which are now one in God's eyes, so there will never be a need for the Spirit to baptize anyone else.
I don't understand what you are trying to say in your quote of what I said in my previous post. I would guess that you are trying to say that we are saved when we believe, and then are baptized to show that we have been saved, but that is not what Jesus said in Mark 16:16. Nor is is what Peter said in Acts 2:38.
You quoted Acts 2:38 above. Do you not understand what it says? Why does it say we are baptized? Not "because your sins have been washed away", but "so that they may be washed away." That is the only meaning that fits with the meaning in Mark 16:16 which says, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
Jesus could easily have said, "He who believes will be saved, and then later he can be baptized to show men that he has been saved." But He didn't. He said BELIEVE and be BAPTIZED, then you will be saved.
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With all due respect my friend, I will not engage in a confrontation with you, I can see that you are as a lot of others that try to prove the Word of God intellectually, not Spiritually. You see Jon, the Word of God is spiritual, and truth of the Word can only be understood by the anointing of the Holy Spirit. 1Cor.2 states that very plainly, the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor.2:12-16, I quote this often, but for you to see it in the KJV, I have copied and pasted.
1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (KJV)
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.I could help you a lot Jon if you would only distance yourself from your intellect and religion, and hear what the Spirit is trying to tell you. Till then God Bless you, and my prayer for you would be found in Eph. 1:17-23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give unto you the Spirit of wisdom, (Grk.Sophia, meaning, “the insight into the true nature of things” ) and revelation in the knowledge of Him (BTW this “knowledge” is “epignosis” meaning full discernment) That the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what is the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
Blessings JB
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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I'm so very sorry JB, but I'm totally confused by your response. Are you suggesting that Jon has no Holy Spirit, because he believes in obedience to the Lord??? Sorry, but, I'm.....totally befuddled! !!!
Are you actually using God's Word to subtract from obedience to His Word?
Matthew7:
18Then Jesus came to them and said,“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
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I'm totally amazed at how many people come out to fight the Word of the Lord when it's regarding obedience to His Word.
People just don't want to.....weird, when the Word states otherwise.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Watchman,
Obedience is not the issue, but rather where obedience is put in the process of salvation. We are called to holiness (this includes obedience), but not out of fear that we will lose salvation or in an attempt to secure salvation ... obedience is a right response of a heart that has been transformed and this transformed heart desires to live obedient because we love the Lord and want to please Him ... not appease Him. Jesus appeased the father through the cross, now as children we have the opportunity to please Him. To me this motivation for obedience is usually at the crux of the argument.
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Jon,
I thank you so much for being here and am happy to have you. You stand correct....salvation and obedience go hand in hand, there is no separation from God and His Word.
So many today, expect to receive salvation without any work....and for those who say that it cost nothing, please read scripture. Salvation will cost you something/everything to be precise.
God says in His Word, that those who follow Him and love Him will be obedient....I honestly don't understand whats so hard to understand about that.
Too many "easy believism/easy salvationism". It will cost you everything....Jesus told us to count the cost.
Matthew 7:24-27King James Version (KJV)
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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I don't believe anyone here is saying "easy believism/easy salvationism". But not everyone who says they believe and repent, actually do. They say this just to claim God said I'm okay to sin. Those who really believe and repent aren't going to want to sin, but will at times as none of us can claim we're without sin. But we'll try to avoid it and stay in the Word and listen to the Spirit.
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LT,
I understand what you are saying. You believe that we can be saved before we do anything. That everything we do comes after we have been forgiven, and after we have been saved. But Scripture does not support this belief.
If that were so, then everyone would be saved, because Scripture says that "every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord." (Romans 14:11) But it also says, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" (Matthew 25:41) You cannot justify your position between these two verses, because if we are saved simply by belief then everyone will be saved when they confess that Jesus is Lord (that would mean that there would be no one on the left).
Read 1 Samuel 15:22 and now Matthew 12:50.
Which comes first: doing the will of the Father or being a brother or sister? Upon which is the action?
Now read Matthew 7:21.
Who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Those who DO the will of the Father. Obedience comes before entrance.
Again, stop reading only the verses in scripture that agree with what you already believe. Open your mind and get rid of your preconceptions. Listen to what God says and hear what is really there. God demands obedience.
Read John 12:42-43 - Would the people there be saved? They believed, but was that enough? They refused to confess Jesus, and so would not be saved. But confession is an act, a "work". How could that be required for salvation?
Can that which is dead bring life? No. How then can a dead faith bring us to eternal life? (James 2)
Read 1 Peter 1:22 - What is it that "purified your souls"? Obedience. So obedience came first, then the purification of the soul.
I know many places in Scripture only include faith or belief as the step to salvation, but we cannot take only one verse (or even 4 or 5 verses) and hang our salvation on them. We must take ALL of Scripture, 2 Timothy 3:16.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Jon, no one is saying that God does not require obedience. We all know that God requires obedience.
The issue is the motivation behind the obedience....not the obedience itself.
It's a heart issue. It's the WHY are you obedient behind the obedience.
Some people are obedient because they love Jesus and pleasing Him is the desire of their heart.
Other people are obedient because they believe they can somehow earn salvation due to their actions. They believe that good deeds earn them a spot in heaven.
I hope we agree that none of us can earn salvation.
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