All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Jon,
If that were so, then everyone would be saved, because Scripture says that "every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord." (Romans 14:11) But it also says, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" (Matthew 25:41) You cannot justify your position between these two verses, because if we are saved simply by belief then everyone will be saved when they confess that Jesus is Lord (that would mean that there would be no one on the left).
Justified in very simple terms:
1) Every knee will bow, but this refers to after the door of salvation has been closed and their fate already sealed.
2) Those who thought they knew him make that profession. Jesus says "I never knew you." They lived religious lives, assumed they were saved and in fact are not.
You really need to study repentance and all that is involved in the repentance process.
You also need to stop accusing people you don't know of believing or doing something that you have in your own mind predetermined that they believe. That is a huge mistake on your part!
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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I agree that we will all bow and confess after this world ends and the door to salvation is closed, but that is a verse that has been used by others who hold your position to argue their point.
But you make my point for me in point #2 above. You say that people who think they are saved and have lived "good" lives, will make that profession. Who will those be? Some of them will be those who "believed" but did not "do" what God commands. For God will say to them, "I NEVER knew you."
I do apologize for accusing you of believing something you don't. I try to hear what you are saying, in interpret what you mean from your words. If I got it wrong, I am sincerely sorry.
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OK, the thing that must be determined is what you mean by professing and what I mean by professing. Anyone can say the sinner prayer (which I have issues with to begin with), that is a type of profession, but does not necessitate a change of heart. A change of heart is wrought by God in the individual who has through the repentance process been enlightened to a few basic truths. These truths will include that God is truly a living God, that we are truly a sinner that needs forgiveness and that Jesus is the only answer to our sin problem (not a comprehensive list).
Again, here on AAG you will find some of us hold different to slightly different views on this. I see Scripture teaching us that God does this work of drawing and enlightening us to the point where we are given through the gospel message and work of the Holy Spirit an opportunity to respond. We can accept or reject, and some love their sin more than they will love God even at this point and will reject. Some view the response as a work, but I do not see that as a work but a surrendering which is the receiving part mentioned in John 1.
Regarding "I never knew you" these are people who have based their whole salvation on religion and their own actions.
There are several positions to consider:
1) Saved by grace; maintained by grace
2) Saved by grace; maintained by works
3) Saved by works; maintained by works
Most people's beliefs regarding salvation fits into one of the three , noting that we could break down each further displaying sub-categories in each. Most of the people on AAG fall into the first. Yet, in the church institution today you will find a lot fall into category 2, though they will not word it that way, their teachings and actions reveal this is their position.
You appear to fall into category 3. Let me know if this is incorrect and why it is incorrect.
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We are not saved by our works. Our works cannot "earn" our salvation, any more than you can make it to the Moon under your own power. We are saved by the grace of God through the Blood sacrifice of Jesus, His Son.
The discrepancy between what we are saying is where we connect with that Blood.
How do you say we connect with the Blood of the Christ?
I read in Romans 6:3-4, "Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life." I believe that in the water of baptism, we connect the Blood which washes us clean of our sin, and we arise a new person.
Now I ask, does getting wet when we are baptized pay the price of the life of a man (let alone the Son of God's life)? Not at all. It is an act of obedience. But Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 both say that act of obedience comes before we are saved: that it is an act that leads to salvation.
Acts 2:38 - "Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Mark 16:16 - " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned."
We are saved by Grace through Faith (Eph 2:8)(which includes works (James 2)); and that salvation is maintained by Grace through Faith as we continually strive (knowing we will fail sometimes) to live our life by His commands (Romans 6).
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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One question.
Let's say someone goes to the altar and truly repents and decides to give their life to Christ, and plans to be baptized the next week.
But as they head home after church they are hit and killed by a drunk driver.
So before having been baptized or done any works, are they in the Lamb's book or cast into outer darkness?
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Cast into darkness. There is an urgency in all of the New Testament Scripture to put action to belief. Look at the Ethiopian Eunuch. While Philip was speaking to him, they came to water, and the eunuch said to Philip, "Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" On Pentecost, after Peter had preached and the people believed, he didn't tell them to come back next week to the baptismal service; the Apostles baptized them that day.
I would not allow the person who comes to repentance and confesses a belief that Jesus is the Christ leave without being baptized, right then.
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Baptized in what? The sink in the bathroom. The nearest Creek 20 miles away that's frozen over?
Besides having proven through Scripture that baptism isn't a prerequisite to salvation, your answer completely negates the love of God or Christ's purpose for being slaughtered. Jesus did not come to Baptize but to call us to repentance. Since God weighs the heart, He would have known this person's heart. The blood of Christ had him covered and He will be written in the Lamb's book of life. -
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He must be baptized in whatever water was closest into which he could be immersed. We are not condemned because we didn't get baptized. We are already condemned. Eph 2:1 - "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins". Col 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses". We are already dead in sin. Baptism is the door (so to speak) through which we must walk to be cleansed by Jesus Blood.
This does not negate God's love or the validity of Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus came to die for our sins as the only sacrifice that was capable of forgiving sin. But He set requirements that we have to DO in order to receive that forgiveness. Yes, he knows our hearts, but he also looks at what we do. If we willfully ignore commandments in His Word, we are rebellious. If He commands us to do something to receive a blessing, we MUST do that thing to receive it.
It cannot be any more clear than Jesus own words in Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." There are two requirements here. Belief is not the only thing we must do.
Again in Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized every one of you for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Again two requirements. The people asking Peter what they should do had already believed. That is why they asked the question, "What shall we do?"
Look at Saul's conversion related in Acts 22. Saul was convicted, and he believed, when he was on the road to Damascus. He went and fasted 3 days in the city. Then Ananias came to him and told him, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Now, if his sins had been forgiven when he was on the road and believed, why was he told to wash them away in baptism? Wasn't he already forgiven? No, his sins were not forgiven until he surrendered his will to God's in baptism.
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The only clarity missing is what type of baptism. It can't be anymore clear to me either, water baptism does not save us.
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There is only one baptism. Eph 4:4-6 says, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
The baptism of the Holy Spirit only happened twice for specific reasons. It doesn't happen anymore. Yes the Spirit indwells us, but the day of Pentecost and the conversion of Cornelius were radical events that demanded signs. The day of Pentecost was the beginning of the Kingdom of God, and the Spirit coming with Power was necessary to show the significance of the event. The second and only other baptism by the Holy Spirit was when Peter was preaching to Cornelius. Here the Spirit fell on the first Gentile convert to show the Jews that the Gentiles were accepted into the Church (Acts 11:17-18 - "Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.")
So I am certainly talking about baptism in water. Now, given Eph 4:4-6, if baptism doesn't hold a significant value in salvation, why is it included in the list of such significant things as one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, one Father, and one Faith? Obviously, by the august company it is listed among, it is a significant event. What is the significance? It is the final "act" we MUST which leads to salvation. Without it, we will remain lost in our sin.
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Roy, I think 1 Corinthians 3 sums up losing salvation. Parentheses have been added for my notes.
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. (Believe in and accept Christ and be saved)
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. (Place with Matthew 5:12 on those who suffer persecution "great is your reward in heaven".)
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved (Still saved, even if they didn't build properly on the foundation of Christ)—even though only as one escaping through the flames. (Trials in this world perhaps? Mistakes made for not listening to Christ and thereby avoiding trouble?)
It seems pretty apparent as you stated, one cannot lose their salvation. But one can receive a lesser reward.
Paul said "I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus". A prize is a reward. Paul's aim was to win the prize that was waiting in heaven. God called him heavenward to receive that prize. So we can act how we want and be saved but not receive the prize waiting for us. Being that God can give us eternal life, there's no doubt He could give us a prizegreater than imaginable. That should make us all strive for that prize.
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But read 1 Corinthians 9:27. " ...but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected." Other verses say "lose the prize." or "am cast away." instead of "be rejected."
What is Paul saying here? He is saying that he keeps himself under control so that, even after he has preached the Gospel to others and helped them find salvation, he will not be rejected from Heaven.
I give you also:
Matthew 10:22 "He that endures until the end shall be saved."
John 15:6 "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
1 Corinthians 15:2 "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."
Galatians 6:8-9 "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in going good, for at the proper time, we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."
Need I go on? There are more. Obviously, we can lose our salvation if we do not continue to live by Jesus commands.
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