All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Unity in the church
One will argue against the head covering, citing it as outdated or a metaphor, while upholding not letting women teach because it's not the same and God commands it.
But as I was studying the difference between the terms holiness, righteousness and justification this morning, something I read just answered a lot of questions that are so often debated.
Laying aside all our notions and beliefs of all these matters, when Jesus said to obey His commands, just what commands was He speaking of?
Galatians 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
John 15:10-12
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
- You shall have no other gods before Me.
- You shall not make idols.
- You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
- Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
- Honor your father and your mother.
- You shall not murder.
- You shall not commit adultery.
- You shall not steal.
- You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- You shall not covet.
Every message was to love God and one another, to live in peace with one another. Even Paul's teaching on head coverings and women teaching were wrapped into that central theme. As Paul said, if his eating meat offended a weaker brother, then he wouldn't eat meat. People were offended about women speaking out or showing their head, and it was causing disagreements and dissention in the church because of customs and trivial matters. The church was against one another and divided in beliefs. Kinda like Baptist, Pentecostal, Nazarene. All because of trivial matters, churches divide and write their own "beliefs" a.k.a. rules. When the only written statement should be "Love God, believe in His Son Jesus Christ, and love others." That simple.
Jesus repeatedly demonstrated love. Love takes care of every commandment. If you steal, you hurt the one you steal from. To dishonor your parents is going to hurt them, etc. The commandments were a guide on how to love God and others...how to treat one another.
The Pharisees tried to nit pick it and make up a bunch of rules like you must pay 10% even if you don't have it, you are not permitted to speak (which wasn't even what quietness meant), you must cover your head. All this clouded what Jesus was teaching.
Matthew 23:13-15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
There are 613 Jewish laws. That certainly is placing burdens on people. Just try and commit them all to memory. Some people can but the rest of the real world would be pulling their hair out.
Jesus never commanded us to keep women silent or from teaching. He never commanded us to cover our head or pay 10%. His commands were to love Him and love others. As long as we're adhering to that, truly loving others, we don't need a list of rules and regulations.
We're not going to do anything that would hurt a brother or sister. We won't covet what they have or steal it. We won't dishonor our parents. We won't lie about others or murder them. We won't step out on our spouse and tear a family apart.
But then we'd have nothing to debate and this site wouldn't exist and I wouldn't have posted this. And we'll finally have reached unity and have just one church.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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Girl, that reply has been in the making for about 4 days. I hit enter 3 days ago working on it by accident. It took FOREVER.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Tammy,
Excellent post beloved.
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I agree with yours as well. Imagine that David, a woman agreeing with you on this subject.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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The entire debate is on 'Is this cultural or literal?'
There are many clues in the text that it is cultural as we have already outlined in other replies how women were treated and thought of under Roman government/leadership. They were not to speak, or study, or appear outside publicly on their own etc.... It would make sense in that context that they would not be allowed to teach.
Ephesians 5:20-32 is interesting.
20always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; 21and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. 22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
Verse 21 says 'Be subject to one another' (a mutual submission)... and in the following verses the husband is not instructed to lead the wife, but he is instructed to LOVE the wife. Love is always the principal.
I believe taking these verses literally (Timothy "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man") and attempting to make them into a doctrine is potentially a legalistic approach, and it can lead to abuse in the church, and back into the bondage that Christ died to release us from. The problem is that part of a command is followed like checking a box on a list of commandments... 'Done'... And other parts are ignored. The result is often a controlling, manipulative and abusive situation towards women. I pray we just get it right.
Romans 12:2New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 And do not be conformed to this [a]world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may [b]prove what the will of God is, that which is good and [c]acceptable and perfect.
What did the 'world' look like in Roman times towards women?
This verse is interesting considering the cultural context in Romans times towards women.
Culturally now women do study and learn scripture. I've learned so much from incredible God honoring women and men. We actually do go outside by ourselves and we don't cover our heads, and we do talk to strangers--all the time (I do anyway). Certain muslim parts of the world still live like this, but we do not. Jesus changed everything. Culturally, everything has changed.
I believe the context is cultural not literal. Others disagree with me.
I don't believe this because I want to teach or feel I have been called to teach.. because I don't feel that at all for myself personally. It's a huge responsibility to teach, and those who do Pastor a church and teach will be judged more strictly.
James 3:1
New American Standard Bible
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.If ANYONE believes they are called to Pastor a church, they should probably take extra care to discern that they are actually called to it in the first place.
The debate goes on... We can find multiple evidence/opinion to support both views depending on whether you suppose a cultural or literal interpretation on this issue.
Blessings, Carla
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I disagree with this approach because we can take any Scripture & say 'Well, let's look at the time in which it was written. Did God really mean what He said or was He just talking about this particular church? Was this said because of the particular city they were in? Was the culture different?
At one time in my life, I too use to use this argument because no way would a man tell me to be silent in church. I was as equal as they & more knowledgeable than most of them there. I use to call Paul a male chauvinist pig who hated women. However, as my studying continued over the years, I don't see that these Scriptures are belittling a woman or asking her to be a floor mat. It's just commanding us to know our place in the role of the hierarchy - God/Jesus/Holy Spirit/man/woman/children. We're made in His image & in following that image, we follow the example of the Godhead.
Now, if you teach a study & men attend, that's their choice. You can't control all aspects but I have issue with a woman standing in the pulpit & bringing the Word unless it's under special circumstances. I could see if it was a married couple leading a marriage class. There are many other options as I said earlier like prophesying & praying & giving a testimony. But for a woman to stand over the man & pull herself out of the line of His command & bring His Word - in my belief - is wrong. I personally can't hold anything she says seriously regardless of the truths she may bring.
My mama remarried & started going to her husband's church. It was a Luthern church I believe. She didn't like it cause she's been Baptist most of her life but like all great Godly women, she was submissive. The Luthern churches change pastors every so often - forgot how many years - and you have no choice who is selected for your particular church. A woman led for a couple of years. I went a couple of times like on Mother's Day & such to be with mama. I just couldn't take in anything that lady said. I looked over at her husband & to me he was a wimp. For her to stand in authority over him made him look like a sap - of course, that's just my opinion. Now, she had some beliefs that weren't Biblical which didn't help her case but her just being a woman really didn't sit well with me.
As far as me being legalistic, I'm probably the least legalistic person you could meet. I feel if taking the Lord at His word is legalistic than so be it. I've seen all my life where we were taught that wine was grape juice in the Bible days. So, to drink wine would be a no goer. Nope, the Bible says wine & I take Him at His word. Do you not truly feel that if it was only meant for this particular situation or this culture or even for this church alone that it would not have said so or no? I'm guessing no. I don't see my belief as being legalistic as I'm just reading it for what it is & taking it for what it says. I suppose if that's legalistic, I'm an abusive woman or have been abused all my life in the church. I know you don't know me but I do feel u probably know me well enough to know I'm not going to sit back & allow ANYONE to abuse me - no man, husband, pastor nobody. I just take Him at His word. No imagery, visions, pictures, or anything is used here so I take it as it says.
Where u said There are many clues in the text that it is cultural as we have already outlined in other replies how women were treated and thought of under Roman government/leadership. They were not to speak, or study, or appear outside publicly on their own etc.... It would make sense in that context that they would not be allowed to teach. - Not sure who you're referring to when you say 'we' outlined the treatment of women but we're not speaking of Roman rule in this situation. It doesn't make a hill of beans how the Romans treated their women. We're not speaking of any state rules, federal rules, government, nothing. We're speaking of the church & what was outlined in the Word how the church should function. We never follow anyone's rule other than God's regardless. Nowhere in Scripture does Christ, God, the apostles or anyone ever bend to cultural rules to save face. Nowhere. We always go against the grain. So, I don't feel that the city they were in played a role. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. In India, the women sit separately from the men in church. One service I seen the women were sitting on the floor & the men, or some of them, were in chairs up above on a platform kinda thing. If Paul was writing this passage in India, would he have changed the order because of how women are separated in this situation? Or would he not just give the same order to all - the UK, US, Canada, India, Mexico, etc? How about in Syria where women are dirt? Would the role change there because of where he was teaching? I just so disagree with this assumption.
I've already forgotten what I've just typed so I'm stopping here for the moment & come back to it. ROFL. Man, it's tough getting old.
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Tammy, I hope you understand I don’t have time to respond to your entire comment. However, I’d like to comment on this.
“At one time in my life, I too use to use this argument because no way would a man tell me to be silent in church. I was as equal as they & more knowledgeable than most of them there. I use to call Paul a male chauvinist pig who hated women. However, as my studying continued over the years, I don't see that these Scriptures are belittling a woman or asking her to be a floor mat. It's just commanding us to know our place in the role of the hierarchy - God/Jesus/Holy Spirit/man/woman/children. We're made in His image & in following that image, we follow the example of the Godhead.”
This is not the issue for me. I see the outline of submission in scripture and in the Godhead, and it’s beautiful. The problem I am having with it…at it’s deepest root, is the abuse of women in the church, and in their homes by men who claim to follow God’s design of authority, and use it to degrade and demean women. That’s my problem. It’s far too common even today. I’ve mentioned that in several of my comments. My comment in regards to legalism has to do with this, it wasn’t directed at you (I had to clarify). If anyone is going to outline and teach God’s design for authority, then it is crucial that they follow it as well with the principal always being love. I can think of two women off the top of my head whose husbands claim to be lovers of the Lord, born again Christians, and yet they have abused their wives. Why do they think they can get away with that? Far too often this teaching is legalistic, hypocritical and abused
I hope that clears things up?
I agree about getting old... My body aches from sitting on bleachers at a baseball game.. I mean really... ALL I was doing was sitting. :-)
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Permalink Reply by ribbon on
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Carla, I believe you are carrying some outside anger into this discussion. I dont know but I can just feel it. I am curious ... when it comes to the two abused women that you know; do you pray for them out of love ? Im sure you do. How about their abusers? How does a christian pray for them the abusers? Is it out of a christian love? How does the church have unity when these things are brought up?
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Janie,
Your questions are good ones, and they all lead to rabbit trails. :-)
To answer them quickly, yes I do pray for them.
Yes, abuse makes me angry. How can I pray for them in love when I'm angry? I know God understands, He hates abuse too.
How does the church have unity when these things are brought up? I don't know. I guess we have to realize that each person is accountable to God.
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Hey Carla Thank you for your reply. I had already commented to your now gone or edited reply. I see my reply to you is gone and I am not sure why because it wasnt connected to yours.. Your above comment is almost the same minus a a few words . So Im not sure why mine is gone. Maybe I will answer this and your original reply later on today except maybe on my page or yours. Maybe I deleted mine by accident I dont know.
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That's strange.. I was having problems on this website about a week ago... For some reason I was unable to log in for almost an entire day.
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