Unity in the church

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 16, 2016 at 8:50am

We can agree that all people are emotional, and that it is debatable that women are more emotional.  Life experience and relationships will confirm that both men and women are emotional, and they may respond either favorably or not in regards to their emotions.

My stance is that women are weaker in physical stature only.  Everything else is equal....morally, intellectually and emotionally men and women are equals.  Physically men are stronger...  But even this is debatable as I know women to be able to handle extreme stress on the body far more than men can.  One of the most obvious examples is giving birth and general pain tolerance.

However, when it comes to physical strength, men are generally stronger in muscular ways than women are.  Men can generally lift heavy things better.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on May 17, 2016 at 11:35am

Carla, I like some of the thoughts/teachings in the last article you posted, I think it has some good points, yet I do not agree with the following:

 

Having just addressed how a believing wife ought to live with an unbelieving husband, Peter addresses believing husbands about how to live with an unbelieving wife, describing her as the “weaker vessel”.  

 

Peter never meant to equate the phrase “weaker vessel’ with an unbelieving wife, because I am not sure that he was saying that the disobedient husband was not a born again child of God, but possibly a brother that was messing up in some way, not obeying or believing a portion of scripture, not the whole of the word, but even if Peter was referring to an unregenerate husband, he starts by asking women to be in subjection to their husbands who are believers and just in case some were not obeying or were unbelievers they should be corrected with a quite spirit and not words, for actions are way more effective in such instances.  Good conduct will not change anyone to believe a portion of the word or the Gospel, but it does get the ground ready for the Spirit using the word of God to bring about a change, for God’s Spirit to bring the person to repentance.

 

King James Bible

1. Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2. Berean Literal Bible
   Likewise wives, be subject to the own husbands so that, even if any are disobedient to the word, they will be won over without word by the conduct of the wives,
3. International Standard Version
   In a similar way, you wives must submit yourselves to your husbands so that, even if some of them refuse to obey the word, they may be won over without a word through your conduct as wives
4. 
   GOD'S WORD® Translation
   Wives, in a similar way, place yourselves under your husbands' authority. Some husbands may not obey God's word. Their wives could win these men by the way they live without saying anything. 

New International Version

1. 1 Wives, in the same way, submit yourselves to your husbands, so that even if they refuse to believe the word, they will be won over without words by the behavior of their wives 2 when they see your pure and reverent demeanor.…

 

You say: I would absolutely agree that a weaker vessel has to do with 'physical' attributes.  But it ends there. 

 

Personally I am not sure that it ends there.

 

It is obvious that men in general are stronger than women physically, but I still think there is something about women’s make up that makes them weaker than men in what I am calling an “emotional sense,”  because I lack the correct word or maybe that is the correct word.

 

Weaker in an emotional sense, not being a complete negative, but rather a positive that men take advantage of, we all know that is not weakness of intellect, importance or standing before God or spirituality. I keep thinking of how women since the fall have been victims of men, specifically in the love department, in a much greater scale than the opposite. I guess in a way I am saying that men are stronger in committing emotional evil. Yes, I know, we all know that we had a few crazy women in history, but we men outweigh the count, then again is not that women don’t think it or desire to do great evil, is just that women know that men will dominate them,  if they have to with their superior physical strength. I am partially thinking out loud here, for I am not sure how to communicate what I mean to say.

 

What we can see directly from the passage is that men are being call to treat women honorably and kindly, partly due to the weakness of the sex and the other due to the honor with which God favors women. We are members of the same body, even as husband and wive and we are to bear with one another and to mutually cover our weaknesses, this is taught in 1 Corinthians, where it is said that “greater honor is given to the weaker members”. We should be more careful in protecting them from shame.

 

God calls us to live with our wives, whether saved or unsaved with understanding and mutual submission, not as if the wife was the head of the house, but rather we are to lovingly submit to the needs, fears and feelings of our wives, something that is learned by the good example of a father and the leading of the Holy Spirit. We are call to treat our wives with respect in the “grace of life”, in marriage. God is not giving us suggestions here through Peter, but lets us know the seriousness of the teaching, by telling us that our prayers will not be heard if we act otherwise.

 

Any man who habitually “walks” in any sin is not fit to teach. Whether he is a child abuser, wife beater, drunk, thief, arrogant or prideful etc.…

 

I do not care and will never care how highly respected a person maybe in the Church to simply receive an erroneous teaching they have about a subject. If their interpretation of scripture is wrong, in a particular subject, is wrong. Calvin, John MacArthur, Luther etc are wrong about some of their interpretations of scripture, very few errors I might add, but though I love them dearly and can only hope to reached a small degree of their incredible insight into scripture, I am not blinded by my love to simply agree with them in a matter where they are wrong and neither should you or anyone else. 

EVErything, absolutely everything God has written in scripture is of immense value and should be regarded as excellent. We MUST seek truth beyond all else, since ONLY with truth can we truly LoVE.

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 18, 2016 at 5:36am

Amanda, if we're going to say men can be emotional too, we can't say they have stronger bodies, maybe most do. But I've seen some women that even Chuck Norris wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley. LOL

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 21, 2016 at 3:09pm

Finally found your comments on the Romans & women. I knew if I would persevere, I'd run across it somewhere.

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 21, 2016 at 3:22pm

I see what you're saying here for the most part. i'm the worse at geography so I'm going to ask Was Corinth part of Rome?

As far as your pastor being highly respected, that doesn't give credence to anything. Jim Jones was highly respected as well & look where that got his followers. Not saying he's asking you to drink the Kool-Aid. Just trying to make a point. I'd give other examples of men in a pulpit that are well respected but cherry pick the Word in order to please all & not offend. 

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 21, 2016 at 3:26pm

He must be faithful to his wife. Pretty tough for a woman to have a faithful wife unless she's gay. I guess that's a good passage for the LGBT to use in their argument as well. 

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 23, 2016 at 3:33pm

OK where's the reply button? :-)

Tammy you said He must be faithful to his wife. Pretty tough for a woman to have a faithful wife unless she's gay. 

It does bring up the question...

God refers to all of us as the bride of Christ... even the men.

PS: Site's still hokey. It's not uploading graphics. I had to link to one online. 

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 11, 2016 at 9:33pm

That verse though can read another way depending on emphasis...I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. So it can appear they are told not to teach.

And then there's determining what exercising authority over means. If a man goes to a Bible study lead by a woman (he's chosen this freely as he knows she's more knowledgeable, having been saved for 30 years but he was saved just a few months ago), is she in authority? He's as free to walk out as he walked in. She's not over him but sharing knowledge she has that he wants.

Food for thought. ;)

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on May 12, 2016 at 12:01am

Some more food for thought:)

We have 2000 years of Church history an not one major theologian that's a women, not in the caliber of a Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Augustine etc... God did not use a women to write any books of the bible. Nor did Christ choose a women to be an apostle.... Why? Christ brought equality of importance to women, but he did not choose a women as an apostle. He chose unlearned men that he trained up, he could have chosen a women as well, but why didn't he?

Different responsibilities. :)

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 12, 2016 at 4:18am

He chose a woman to bring Him into the world. He gives the Spirit to all equally. He had women in Scripture who were used greatly by Him. He never put a woman out. Women were also in the upper room. It was a woman who first boldly enough asked Him to perform the first miracle. He rebuked men who didn't even bother to wash His feet, or kiss or anoint Him but gave more credence to a woman who used her own hair to do it. He never said why women weren't apostles but He also never told one disciple that wherever the gospel is preached, what they did would always be told, but of a woman He said that "what she has done will also be told". Perhaps He didn't choose them as apostles because He used them in greater ways.

Be sure to take time to enjoy the flavor and texture of your food and to thank God for your food.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on May 12, 2016 at 7:21am

Char,

Women have always been used by God in the world, no one is disputing that, but they are not called to do what men are called to do in the church or at home, just like men are not called to do some of the things women are called to do. 

God, not man has given them a different roll and that roll does not involve Pastoring a church or leading in marriage/home. Women do it all the time, because men fail to do it and other not so good reasons, but that is not the ideal design. 

This is a good article from our friends at Gotquestions.org

Question: "How is a woman’s desire for her husband a curse (Genesis 3:16)?"

Answer: As God pronounces judgment on Eve for her part of the transgression in Eden, He says, “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you” (Genesis 3:16). This verse causes some puzzlement. It would seem that a woman desiring her husband would be a good thing, and not a curse.

The Hebrew phrase in question does not include a verb and is literally translated “toward your husband your desire.” Since this judgment is predictive, the future tense verb “will be” is added for clarity: “Your desire will be for your husband.” The most basic and straightforward understanding of this verse is that woman and man would now have ongoing conflict. In contrast to the ideal conditions in the Garden of Eden and the harmony between Adam and Eve, their relationship, from that point on, would include a power struggle. The NLT translation makes it more evident: “You will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.”

God is saying that Eve would desire to rule over her husband, but her husband would instead rule over her. Replacing the mutually interdependent relationship the Lord had created was a desire for one spouse to lead the other. Sin had wrought discord. The battle of the sexes had begun. Both man and woman would now seek the upper hand in marriage. The man who was to lovingly care for and nurture his wife would now seek to rule her, and the wife would desire to wrest control from her husband.

It is important to note that this judgment only states what will take place. God says that man and woman will live in conflict and their relationship will become problematic. The statement “he shall rule over you” is not a biblical command for men to dominate women.

In the New Testament, God affirms His ideal relationship between man and woman in marriage. Christ-like qualities are emphasized. What the curse of sin created, believers in Christ are called to correct by living according to God’s Spirit. Ephesians 5: says that the wife should willingly submit to her husband’s authority in the home, in essence, refusing to scratch the curse-fueled itch to seize control (verses 22-24). Husbands are to love their wives unconditionally and sacrificially, just as Christ loves the Church (verses 25-30). The whole passage begins with an emphasis on mutual submission to one another: “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ” (verse 21).

From the beginning, God’s focus has been love and respect between husband and wife. Though sin has tainted the original beauty of this relationship, God commands believers in Christ to pursue this ideal relationship between husband and wife, an ideal perfectly illustrated in Christ’s relationship with the Church.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on May 12, 2016 at 8:32am

I like the article. It makes good biblical points. Yes, the fallen flesh of woman still wants to control man, and the fallen flesh of man wants to abuse the power to rule over woman, but in Christ, neither one in the marriage is to control the other but for many couples, it is a constant battle, and especially if one of them isn't saved.

We are to walk in the Spirit, and Ephesians 5:22-33 shows us the Christ-like quality of submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Ephesians 5:21
English Standard Version (ESV)
21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Women aren't to teach over men or exercise authority over men, but women can teach, just not teach over men. They can teach with men, such as being a team. Even in this case, then man is still over the woman and everything she teaches aligns with what he teaches.

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