Abusive spouse

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 2, 2016 at 5:21pm

Seek,

I never said the spouse cannot leave, in fact the abuse is proof that the abuser does not want their spouse and they are therefore free to leave according to Scripture. The issue is not leaving when abused, but does abuse reach a Biblical standard for divorce and then later for remarriage. I do not see the Bible teach that in any sense. 

There is no desire on my part to make you angry by the next set of comments, but will simply lay them out there where can receive or reject them.

You are making two great errors, and these errors are made because it is how you and too many others have been taught to think, especially about God,

1) Trusting man instead of God's Word and His Spirit: You apply the following too much, listening to people and their opinions, relying on it as if it carries some form of weight ... Some would consider it ... one would say this is where we draw the line and another says no this is, ... But we're never going to come to an exact same concensus on everything in the Word ... Even the best of scholars have differences of opinion on certain Scriptures.

2) Emotions, heart driven: but do we feel we should condemn ... He knows it's a struggle on a person's heart when ... But we also know He knows our weakness ... For some reason I just can't wrap my mind around a God who ....

But instead, I've heard so many times where someone said they used to be physically abused and beaten but stayed because they were taught that you can't divorce.

I have been around a fair number of abused women and not once have I heard the as the reason. Often the guilt is they blame themselves or they are afraid to leave for a number of reasons, but not because they were taught is was wrong to leave.

If we take out man's (and woman's) opinion, as well as our emotions, and looked on the basic teaching found in Scripture on the subjects of divorce and remarriage we find some very basic and solid facts.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 2, 2016 at 5:28pm

I also find something else interesting in society today.

Too may spend way too much time attempting to bring other doctrines into play in an attempt to show why a basic straightforward teaching must mean something else as if  divorce and remarriage cannot stand on the Scripture they are found in. Examples of this are seen in the use of love and mercy to explain why this must be OK. God knows we will sin and thus understands ...

Did you know that studies have revealed that singles groups at churches are as prone or more prone to have members engaged in sexual activity than those who are outside the church. The number one reason given to excuse this action ... God understands my needs.

What is the point of His Word and His teaching us if our emotions and needs trump His Word? Well, yeah, He said it, but He understands MY need ...

Permalink Reply by Seek on February 3, 2016 at 5:19am

I know you didn't say they cannot leave. But I'm also talking about how people approach Scripture differently and/or apply differences on situations. Like when one determines adultery has occurred for one. Do they need concrete evidence? Is lust, such as with pornography, or devoting your attention to another in preference over the marriage, since Christ actually did make such a distinction. This is why I see it as picking and choosing Scripture at times. We stick with the concept of adultery yet the part about lust becomes less important. God's intent and design on marriage was never abusive or marrying out of lust or arrangement in some cases where love was never a factor. But I'll just reiterate that it's not a decision to take lightly but neither should it be a source of condemnation. Since God isn't accusing why do we? Why do we hold so strictly to this while neglecting understanding and compassion? This is the concern I have.

Nothing you've said makes me angry even when I disagree on some points. ;-) I kinda leave it up to the person involved to seek answers in prayer and knowing God's nature and what the individual can endure. Not take it lightly but not just blindly accept that this is it and regardless of anything, they can't even consider this as a course of action. And I wanted to put it out there for anyone who battles this and have been told they're being disobedient and that's that. Disobedience isn't the motive. They may simply be unable to emotionally endure the situation any longer and have to make a decision and pray for God to meet them where they are knowing His compassion and their weakness. I'm hoping to remove the condemnation aspect so they can approach it through their own relationship with and understanding of God's character. I look at how God/Christ handled issues. When David blatantly gave into lust, God dealt justly with Him. When Gideon or Moses and others felt too inadequate to do what God told them to do, or Elijah fell into depression and fear, God sent help, strength and encouragement not justice for disobedience, but mercy for their weakness.

1) This isn't because I'm trusting man on this issue. My response to the issue raised when I had the conversation with someone on the abuse they stayed in, was in part due to something I actually finally GOT about salvation. Something that removed a cloud of condemnation and left my spirit much lighter. My comment on people having different understanding of Scriptures is to show that even those who've devoted lifetimes to studying the Word can have a different understanding of Scriptures. Romans 14 explains this. I'm just hoping to help one who lives in some condemnation over this to lay aside what they think they must do based on what they've been taught for years and approach it through studying God's real nature and through prayer. We can't do that when we're being told do this or do that because of all the outside voices at war. It's a matter that needs to go to God individually.


2) I've actually heard several state they stayed because they didn't want to disobey God and knew divorce was a sin but they still carry the inner scars and question it. And this last actually stated she'd always been taught divorce was wrong.


As for singles in church saying God understands my needs, a desire isn't even in the same category as a mental or physical inability to carry something out. People do fall into situations where they think with their heart instead of their head and feel terrible about it. But to excuse the action beforehand knowing you're going to anyway and releasing any guilt over disobeying are using this is a copout to blatantly disobey God and not an area of prayer and inescapable circumstances. One can leave an abuser but if still tied in marriage the abuse can continue and at this point they may need to seek God's guidance on how to deal with it. Divorce may be the only option for some. And while they don't want to (which is different than wanting to and excusing it beforehand) it may ultimately become the only course of action they feel capable of but hate that it has come to that.

Permalink Reply by Tammy on February 2, 2016 at 6:16pm

He knows we make wrong decisions. One would hope that once we turn to Christ, that future choices would be made more wisely and in prayer and the Word. - However wrong the decisions we've made and whatever side of the cross they were made, the consequences are still there for us to live out. 

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Permalink Reply by Seek on February 3, 2016 at 5:53am

Certainly. But consequence without compassion is why many people say God is cruel and unjust. They believe since God said not to divorce that He condones abuse and punishes victims for divorcing when they didn't know how else to continue being subjected to it, while letting the abuser keep abusing. The abuse nor divorce were God's intent or design and if one doesn't see any other way to survive, God does understand it. I'm not saying He condones the divorce but that He extends mercy because of the weakness of one who failed in strength under great trial.

Let me use what we consider a "lesser" sin. Not that God does but we certainly do.

Gluttony.

We know we aren't supposed to yet many do and why? Maybe they're weary as Elijah was. Maybe their minds aren't completely renewed in this area. So what happens when they give into eating what they know they shouldn't? Do they live under the cloud of condemnation, which only causes them to fall prey to it even more, or do they dust off the powdered donuts and start fresh trying again and again and continuing in prayer and searching the Scriptures on it until they eventually put to death that area of the flesh? If they keep feeling like they failed God because they couldn't control it they keep trying to control their own flesh instead if allowing the Spirit to retrain whatever wrong concept they have leading them to grab the donuts.

Divorce is a sin in the same category. Sin is sin. But what caused the marriage to breakdown, what wrong choices might they have made in marrying and during the marriage? Can it be salvaged? Can they learn from those mistakes and avoid the same situation repeating? Are they going to succeed on sheer willpower alone or on allowing the Spirit to change their inner person?

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 3, 2016 at 8:49am

There are some sins in the OT which, if committed, required the death penalty. Blasphemy was one. Jesus was falsely accused of it and received the death penalty. Adultery is another. Even cursing your parents was one, Exodus 21:17. Today, we tend to say it's all the same to God, and one sin requires the death penalty in Hell if one doesn't receive Jesus, since His blood is our atonement.

I remember watching some awful show as a kid that starred Farrah Fawcett called the Burning Bed. The abused woman kills her husband for beating and raping her. She kills him because when she turns for help, there's not much anyone will do. She doesn't kill him in self defense during an altercation. When he's asleep, she sets his bed on fire.

So is it OK to tell someone in a domestic abuse, if they murder their abuser, then God understands? After all, sin is sin, and one sin is the same as another, right? No, I don't think we'd go that far and speak for God that way.

I started a recent discussion asking if there are definite sins for which we are to judge people who are believers and brothers and sisters in Christ, in light of Biblical truth, going to them in love, confronting them, and calling them to repentance (1 Cor 5).

Generally, an abused person often keeps silent about being abused, especially in a church setting, but in cases where the church knows about it, then the church is called to take action, simply because it is sin, and personal safety should be addressed as well as and theological matters—such as church discipline. The church should be ready to offer pastoral care and counseling for the abused in order to help the abused seek wisdom in how to respond to the conflict at home, the anger, and the sin. All sin is against God even though it's committed against people. If the couple are both believers in the church, then church discipline should be applied. If one is a believer, and the other an unbeliever, then, of course, church discipline isn't applied to unbelievers.

There are many barriers to leaving an abusive situation. Leaving is often dangerous. "The reality is that the most dangerous time for a survivor/victim is when she leaves the abusive partner; 75% of domestic violence related homicides occur upon separation and there is a 75% increase of violence upon separation for at least two years." http://stoprelationshipabuse.org/educated/barriers-to-leaving-an-ab...

We must be careful of what we tell people to do. This is why the decision is left up to the person. If you tell someone to leave, to divorce, and then the worst happens, what then?

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Permalink Reply by Seek on February 4, 2016 at 5:02am

To turn that around, if we tell them not to leave or divorce and in a fit of rage one night they are killed, what then?

Permalink Reply by Seek on February 4, 2016 at 6:13am

Perfect. I typed a long response and it went the way of cyberspace.

I wanted to pose some questions myself.

Would we all agree that it's a sin to not pay what you owe?

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. Romans 13:8

How about not providing for our family?

Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8

If anyone believes these are not sins, I would like you to help me understand how you reached that conclusion.

The Association of Oncology Social Work (AOSW) shows that 66% of cancer patients with major financial challenges suffer depression or anxiety, 29% delay filling prescriptions due to financial pressures, and 22% skip doses of their medications. Sixty-three percent say financial issues reduce compliance with their cancer treatment even though that treatment is key to their recovery. Additionally, 40% of reported depleting their savings, almost 30% reported dealing with bill collectors, and 54% of those handling a major/catastrophic financial burden said it had become more difficult in the past year to afford treatment. Furthermore, 68% reported experiencing financial hardship due to medical bills, and 55% said the stress of dealing with costs negatively affects their ability to focus on their recovery.

Like the woman with the issue of blood, they spent all they had on doctors. Some find themselves in danger of losing their home, have difficulty keeping food on the table. They face bankruptcy even though they aren't paying the debt they owe anyhow.

Through no fault of their own, they are forced to either not provide for their family or not pay their debts. They have no way to not sin.

We can help someone living under abuse by praying with them seeking answers to the wisest course of action, such as do we starve the kids or pay the bills. Divorce may be the inescapable conclusion they reach in order to be safe.

To sum up Paul's message...

Due to the fall, we WILL sin. We cannot escape that fact. God knew this from the start and planned for Christ to bear all the sins we can't escape. Paul says it doesn't mean we keep sinning, BUT, knowing we can't escape it, IF YOU DO, Christ is our advocate. He came not to condemn...

And the moral of the story in my opinion is...

Neither should we.

Divorce, not providing or paying debt, etc. were never God's design or intent but since man fell from grace, Christ set it right through Himself being sinless...cause we can't be. We don't excuse it but neither do we condemn it when it is the only viable option one concludes through prayer in the situation.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 4, 2016 at 6:37am

Mere attempts to justify sinning! Christ didn't come to condemn because everyone was already under condemnation and He came to seek and save them. How can people be saved if we justify sin? Think!

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 4, 2016 at 4:45pm

Seek,

I am at a loss. I don't see how pointing out other potential failures some how make another failure palatable. Each issue stands and falls on God's Word and man's ability to perform, or not, does not change the standard or the value of God's Word on any and all issues. Whether people fail by ignoring or overlooking any sin does not make another sin OK. God does not look for man's approval on His Word.

Permalink Reply by Seek on February 9, 2016 at 6:27am

LT

I've not said once that sin is ok. What I've said is that because of our fallen nature, we "can't" be completely sin free. We're to make every effort not to sin but sometimes we will regardless of our efforts.

So back to what you said about the church not doing the right thing not being an excuse for another to do wrong....should the church be telling someone being beaten that they'll sin if they divorce if the same church preaching that isn't willing to also say they'll help keep them safe, be an intermediary and provide emotional and perhaps financial support?

I'm sorry if it's the word "divorce" that has frozen the conversation at that specific point but I can't see my stand on this changing unless God shows me something I'm missing somewhere.

The church is quick to teach, divorce is a sin, this is a sin, that's a sin...sin sin sin. And then those who claim grace permits them to do whatever are the other side of the pendulum. That pendulum has been swinging year after year. Isn't it time for the swinging to slow down? If one isn't correct in saying that we can sin all we want cause we're under grace, is the other anymore correct in saying grace or not, you must never sin despite whether or not it seems unavoidable? Everything I've read in Scripture has been of a pendulum that doesn't move. It doesn't swing either way but is steady in the middle of sin and grace. It's the Scriptures that say this is God's design, this is how we should seek to live, but IF WE SIN.....

It's not a message of admonishing a person of a sin but one of understanding that person's struggle, being willing to lend a hand based on love for them, standing by to offer support and being willing to say that yes God hates divorce BUT...only HE knows your heart. HE sees your struggle. HE is not condemning you. Just keep your eyes focused on Him, lean on us for support and we'll all pray that God makes your path straight. When we say God hates divorce period...we've lost half the commandments to love one another. Cause we're only leaving them with a burden we're not willing to help lighten but over eager to preach the point. The point without the grace is, in my opinion, pointless.

I'm going to bring up one final thing on this then leave it there because it looks like we got stuck on the sin aspect to the point that we've lost sight of, or never actually saw, past that to the heart of the matter.

You probably recall my struggle with tithing. I was raised to believe we were commanded to tithe and not tithing 10% was a sin. Even God said we rob Him in tithes and offerings. Anyone can take a handful of Scripture and apply it in any manner they choose. So without the drawn out discussion on who believes tithing was OT, wasn't monetary, ended with the final sacrifice, was only to feed the priests in that day....insert popular belief or opinion here....I was told God wouldn't bless me if I didn't tithe, that we're commanded to tithe. So when I did so even when I couldn't pay my bills, it had my mind spinning in a struggle that stole every bit of peace and joy a person could ever try to muster up. I was in a catch 22. I paid tithes and neglected the debts (debts I had before ever accepting Christ that didn't disappear at salvation), or I paid the debts I was told to pay so that I obeyed God as well as not harm others by not paying what was owed them. But in doing this, I was left believing I was sinning not trying to sin. I'm rather amazed I managed to stay out of a straight jacket with all that "teaching".

I was reading Scripture, praying, listening. Scripture was being tainted because I hadn't yet grasped context. Prayer and listening was telling my heart hey! You had all this debt when you came to me. It didn't go away. Yes I want you to give but within your MEANS, not some 10% figure and as you feel you can do the most good with it...not out of guilt. And giving isn't just money. Then my head was interjecting that since everyone else (in the circle I knew) was teaching tithing that I must be wrong. There was no grace taught on tithing but a firm law. No understanding, just an untenable law at the time for me to be able to adhere to. And again, I get that not everyone sees tithing as law. But I was being shown Scripture to back this up and a part of Scripture was being left out......

Grace. The one thing that tempers everything. Whether one considers the 10% tithe law or not, it still falls under grace. And had it been tempered with that grace, I may likely have not warred internally on it as long as I did. When we remove grace, all that's left is condemnation. And someone being abused is already torn inside. They don't want divorce. They didn't want their marriage to go down this path. They don't want to split up their family, are afraid of how they'll survive. They don't want to displease God yet can't seem to figure out how not to or how to mentally survive this. The absolute last thing they need is for us to increase the struggle by focusing on God's view of divorce while failing to share His view on love and mercy, compassion and understanding.

I'm not sure there's anything else I could say on this to make it anymore clear on whether I'm justifying or condoning sin or not or saying it's OK since the church isn't doing right, etc. And I hope it's rather apparent that I "have" thought on this...quite a lot and quite awhile. This wasn't the first time I'd had someone mention years of abuse because God didn't want them to divorce. It's quite apparent that God doesn't want probably 99% of what we do. But through all the prayer and study, I'm beginning to understand a part of God that seems to often get buried under a weight of condemnation.

A thought I'd like to pose...

If we get get angry at a driver who cuts us off and beat ourselves up for acting ungodly, most would bring up growth, grace and mercy. If we kept trying to react better yet failed to always do so, most would probably still hold that stance. But grace, mercy, God's love, our human nature, etc. are the last things mentioned when we move into what we call "larger" sins. They didn't go away. We just choose to place more condemnation on certain things because we actually don't understand what is going on inside the person's life and heart. We cannot fathom their struggle. The smaller things we all struggle with. So we understand grace in those.

So I think I'm gonna leave it here and if anyone still feels I'm wrong to believe we shouldn't condemn one for a struggle they don't see a way around instead of helping wherever we can and applying grace and mercy without claiming it's the same as justifying or condoning sin, then it's at a point where nothing I could possibly say would make any difference in that assessment so I just won't say anything.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 9, 2016 at 4:49pm

I will only respond to one part and briefly to the main point. It is obvious you have been hurt in the past and I believe it clouds your judgment. You already assume if one believes something is a sin and will not accpet action contrary to that belief that they automatically condemn and some how want the worst for  a person. You assume that because one does not accept sin that they will reject everyone and toss them to the curb. Do you realize that a true church must operate as a hospital seeking to reach the lost and help to heal the hurting. This can be done without compromise to one's faith, but also requires the other person to also acknowledge some things of God without attempting to rationalize them away.

Back to the main point ... one can separate, but divorce falls under another category and remarriage under another as well. Divorce and remarriage are not rights or even essentials in life. There are Biblical guidelines that must be followed. 

There is a difference between I know you are hurting, go ahead and sin and I know you have sinned and therefore hurt. Sin can never be the remedy to a problem ... there has to be another solution, a godly solution in every situation where the only choice appears to be a choice that goes against God's Word.

Lord Bless,

LT

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