All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Some of the Scriptures that cause me to think that a Christian can walk away from God.
Many Christian's believe that once we are saved then we can't move away from God's salvation. There are many threads written about this. But it is some of these passages that cause to me think otherwise.
John 15
The Vine and the Branches
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Matthew 25
The Parable of the Bags of Gold
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’
21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’
23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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I guess I see "wretched" as feeling like you're no good. Maybe that's not how Paul was using it.
I've always heard the "just a sinner saved by grace". Perhaps even when we think we know something like that isn't what we should believe, it's been ingrained on our subconscious for so long, it takes time to actually eradicate it completely. Just like believing once saved always saved. We might believe it...on the surface. But the years of being taught we can lose it need to be eradicated from our subconscious.
We might also still question if we ever really repented or had a true heart change when we read Scripture on how we should act and then fail at it and question our salvation over that.
We have to recognize the voices of condemnation. And that too may be something we know but haven't yet "felt". I guess that's maybe what it is. We know it but our subconscious thinking doesn't let us really feel it deep down.
I now remind myself of who the accuser is and that God does not condemn. Even the thought that maybe I wasn't truly saved is condemnation. It doesn't point one to God but confuses. And that's another...God isn't the author of confusion. So when that thought arises, I can put it where it belongs. Yet even knowing those Scriptures for quite sometime, I still couldn't seem to completely grasp it deeply, when it seemed everything was coming against me, until recently. Anyone dealing with condemnation needs to keep praying and reading Scripture that deals with it until it gets rid of whatever is buried deep down and becomes their renewed belief. -
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Hebrews 10:10-18
10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”[a]
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c]
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
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Permalink Reply by Ananda Welikala on
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Heb. 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
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Clearly the above was written not to Born Again believers, but to Jews who were under the Law. (We don't bother with PRIESTS because we have pastors or shepherds who lead the flock of God. Priests are intermediaries between God and human beings. When Jesus died the "middle wall of partition" was ripped open from top to bottom by the Holy Spirit, opening the way for mankind to reach God sans intermediary priests).
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16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]The above is NOT for now definitely. It is for the MILLENNIAL Kingdom when Jesus rules from Jerusalem for a thousand years. The PROMISE is that God will put HIS LAWS in the hearts of the Millennial subjects under Jesus Christ. If the above promise is for now, how come it is NOT happening in our time?
In the Millennial Kingdom there will be no more SACRIFICE for Sins. Sacrifice for sins is OT law. Those who enter the millennial Kingdom get in to it, because their sins have been totally forgiven.
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Nope. Only verse 11 refers to "priests" and weren't emphasized as they weren't the focal point. The remaining passage refers to "this" priest...the only priest who ever sat down at the right hand of God. And is directly opposed to the statement you made about asking forgiveness every morning. Christ was the final sacrifice and where we were "forgiven" (not to repeatedly ask for forgiveness), doesn't require a constant daily ritual of asking what we already have. Doing so is only a reminder of sins we can't go back and fix. But remembering He forgave us already, we can move forward able to understand His love rather than trying to gain what we already have.
If this Scripture refers only to the millennial kingdom then it negates the whole Gospel message. Because 14 and 18 are clearly referring to when Jesus sacrificed Himself. Jeremiah 31:33-34 says the same and references when we we are forgiven, which is when we accept Christ. We don't accept Him just to continue being unforgiven and being judged the same as those who don't accept Him.
Also check 2 Corinthians 3:2 where Paul makes the same statement past tense "written" "not in tables stone" but "in fleshly tables of the heart".
Further evidence is found in Romans 4 and 5, Hebrews 10:19-30, Romans 7:22 and 25
Hebrews 8:6 tells us Christ established a new covenant and Jeremiah and all others are saying in those days in reference to the new covenant Christ already established.
I could cite many more Scriptures which show that Christ writes the law on our hearts at the time of salvation when we turn to Him and believe in Him. Not in the new millennium but in the new covenant (testament) of Christ. However, I need to go and take care of business this morning.
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Sorry but one addition:
1 Corinthians 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Christ was perfect and had the laws on His heart and we have the same mind He had and the Spirit of God. We are Spiritual with His laws on our hearts as Paul speaks of in Romans 7:25.
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Producing branches are PRUNED for higher production. They are never cut off and thrown in the fire!
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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You must read Romans 7 and Romans 8. Romans 7 is not a stand alone chapter. The wretched feeling is over the battle with the flesh as he does the things he does not want to do and does not do the things he does want to do. That is far different from BEING A SINNER. It is also debatable as to which point in his life chapter 7 relates, but regardless chapter 8 clearly demonstrates his victory. Now do you think this victory is only future or did Paul experience it on earth, while still battling the flesh? (Note Rom. 8:29-30)
To my understanding, the original manuscripts didn't contain chapter divisions. I've found it to be misleading at times, as if one topic is resolved and then another begins in the next chapter. Another example of a strange division of chapters IMO is the way Romans 1 ends, making one think that God is only talking about a certain kind of people in that chapter, but not me, and then the way chapter 2 begins, you get rebuked for thinking Romans 1 wasn't talking about you. Lol
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No, they didn't have chapters or verses. Like us writing letters today (if anyone actually does that anymore LOL), we don’t number our sentences anymore than Paul would have. I believe it was done this way for convenience to make it easier to have a stopping point unless we intend to read nonstop. ;-) However this prompted a Google search and I found interestingly that there were types of divisions in the original manuscripts so they could be read aloud in the synagogue. Sort of chapter type divisions but not verses.
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