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Some of the Scriptures that cause me to think that a Christian can walk away from God.
Many Christian's believe that once we are saved then we can't move away from God's salvation. There are many threads written about this. But it is some of these passages that cause to me think otherwise.
John 15
The Vine and the Branches
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Matthew 25
The Parable of the Bags of Gold
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’
21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’
23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Here you reveal your doctrinal error, the same error that many make.
You take a low view of the blood of Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit. You view this work as merely taking a bath. This bath you describe is an external bathing. Whereas the born again experience that comes through the blood of Jesus and work of the Holy Spirit is an internal transformation whereby the Holy spirit quickens (brings to life that which was previously dead). This new life is a transformed life that will begin to demonstrate the character of God as the Holy Spirit begins to live the life of Christ through us. You see the application of the blood as only able to cleanse the sinner for a moment and view the person as the same after coming to faith in Christ as he was before needing a new (fresh) salvation over and over ... that is not Scriptural.
A child of God needs to be cleansed for the purpose to be used of God not to be saved over and over again as you intimate. What you describe is not salvation.
Either we are sinners or saints. A sinner (state of being) needs to be born again, come to life (spiritual life) from death (spiritual death) by the work of the Holy Spirit. The spiritually alive child of God need only be cleansed in order for God to use him/her, not so they may again be saved as if they move in and out of salvation ... if that be the case your salvation is works based because my work enables me to lose my salvation according to your teaching.
And, again, in order to understand Romans 6 and 7 you must read Romans 8.
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Permalink Reply by Ananda Welikala on
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I go back to Rom. 7. Apostle Paul who wrote most of the NT, said in v. 14 that he is CARNAL and sold under sin. In v. 17 he said that he does the sins he does because SIN dwells in his carnal body. In V. 18 he said that in his body DWELLS NO good thing! He knows to do good but how to perform it, he doesn't know! V. 20 is crucial because he says that sins dwell in him. V. 21 confirms the same as well as v. 23.
Why does Paul condemn himself ? saying: "O wretched (misarable) man that I am"?
If Paul thought of himself as SINLESS, how come he wrote those words from v. 14 to 24?
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You will continue to live a Romans 7 life until you read and understand Romans 8.
You also need to understand how language is used in writing regarding past, present and future.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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I think Paul is describing the condition of one who is saved but who is trying to live out the Christian life in one's own strength.
In Romans 7:22, Paul says, “For in my inner being I delight in God’s law…”
One who isn't born again can't in his inner being delight in God’s law.
To me it's clear Paul is speaking of his struggle as a believer to walk in the Spirit and subdue the flesh.
I think at times Paul failed and sinned and felt terrible discouragement when he morally and spiritually failed, so much so that he said what a wretched man I "am.” When we sin, we feel wretched and we should in my POV.
Paul knew that in the future he was going to be delivered from the wrestling with the flesh but he also knew he was already a new creation. He knew he was called to live in accordance with his redeemed identity in Christ.
Paul was a saint who battled the flesh while he was in the body because he had a new spirit and was experiencing the process of progressive sanctification day by day in his mind and soul and believed in the resurrection of his body that would happen one day when after being saved and sanctified he will be glorified.
Some describe it in different ways saying that salvation has three tenses or phases: we have been saved, we are being sanctified, and we will be glorified. Or, we are saved but are being saved, too.
Only when we are glorified will we no longer sin. But if we believe that, when we are born again, that we receive a new nature and that the old is gone and the new has come, then the truth is we no longer have a sin nature. It's gone. It's not like that poem that says "Two natures beat within my breast, The one is foul, the one is blessed ..."
We have the new nature but still must battle the unregenerated flesh that has evil desires and we must experience progressive sanctification in our souls and we need the renewing of our minds. As far as I know the flesh can't be changed by us but must be subdued by us and mastered. It's a battle. -
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Amanda,
I'm not sure if Paul was wrestling with this (at least not at that time) as he was explaining how we delight in the Spirit and that in our flesh is sin. I feel he's saying don't beat ourselves up since it's no longer us that do this but sin that dwells in the flesh.
I've spent years struggling over when I'd get angry or act wrong in whatever manner, which only kept me continually struggling with the age old question: was I really saved. The Spirit testifies that we are children of God. But if we're still trying to do right and beating ourselves up over it, we'll stay in condemnation and quench the Spirit. How can the Spirit testify if we're hearing condemnation instead of the Spirit? Since there's now therefore no condemnation, how do we move beyond that?
I've prayed and prayed on this and am only recently beginning to "get it". I feel that the Spirit has been speaking to me inwardly about this in that how can I stop acting in a manner that I now hate? The answer was to stop dwelling on the wrong things I've done that I can't go back and change, but instead focus on how much Christ loves me that He put Himself through torture and death so that I could be free from the law that says unless I behave a particular way that I'm in danger of hell daily....because perfect love casts out fear.
This isn't something that came from studying it out and reaching a conclusion but something that was revealed during prayerful quiet time with God. By continually focusing on my mistakes, I'm not adhering to whatsoever is lovely whatsoever is of good report. By focusing on what I've done right, I'm instead in a state of mind where I will ultimately naturally do more right than wrong because I've taken the negative thoughts of failures captive and I keep my eyes on the cross instead.
Do I hate sin? Yes. Do I still act sinful when I have selfish, angry feelings, let myself be hurt by what others think? Yes. Am I therefore sinful? Nope Christ died to sin once for all. He crucified sin. It is no longer I that sin but the sin that dwells in the flesh.. Knowing this, I have felt much better about myself and have felt better towards others lately. The other way just kept me feeling like I was all wrong. I was mired in condemnation because I was listening to the devil remind me of everything I've ever done wrong. Living with that over us day after day can be maddening.
I hope that Ananda can understand this or she will keep asking God's forgiveness every day. And what of the one day she is awakened unexpectedly by a call of a loved one in the hospital and madly rushes out the door not having had time to pray for forgiveness that morning and in her hurry she's upset with the driver in front of her, goes around and cuts him off, and she's in a deadly accident? Will she be in hell because God didn't forgive her sins that day because she didn't ask?
No. God forgave (and forgot) all sin the day His son bore the weight of ALL the sins of the world. By asking forgiveness every day, it's almost as if we're reminding God of something He said He forgot.
I tell you this is the first time I've understood the freedom we have in Christ Jesus. And it's the first time I'm truly starting to feel relieved of the burdens I've been carrying around. I certainly don't want to act wrong but to let others see me as free. But if I at times fail in this, I know I have another chance day after day. And THAT makes it all good. :-)
And I'm saying all this not only to you, or Ananda or whoever else may be reading, but it's also a message to myself to continually solidify this to my own self as well. -
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Didn't the H.S. writing the Holy Scriptures of Rom. ch. 7 and 8, using Paul's hand and pen (or amanuensis) know what he was writing?
Of course, with the H.S. in my body (heart) I am not under CONDEMNATION of sin. The moment my heart beats for the last time, I am sure 100% of being in the very presence of Jesus Christ who died in my place. Paul never DOUBTED about His place in heaven at his death. Yet, he wrote that he was a wretched man by saying: "O wretched man that I AM." If I say that I am not wretched, then I am saying that I am better in my spirituality than Paul. I will never forget that SIN resides in my flesh.
Btw, Paul was never trying to live his life by his OWN strength. If he did, he would be a hypocrite, PREACHING one thing and living the opposite!
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You must read Romans 7 and Romans 8. Romans 7 is not a stand alone chapter. The wretched feeling is over the battle with the flesh as he does the things he does not want to do and does not do the things he does want to do. That is far different from BEING A SINNER. It is also debatable as to which point in his life chapter 7 relates, but regardless chapter 8 clearly demonstrates his victory. Now do you think this victory is only future or did Paul experience it on earth, while still battling the flesh? (Note Rom. 8:29-30)
Again, as Paul opens his letters, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, did he write to the sinners at the various churches or the holy (his word)? If to the holy as stated then they cannot be viewed as holy and sinners at the same time.
Names and titles matter. Therefore let's play a word game. Are you:
Ananda the sinner saint?
Ananda the holy sinner?
These are what you are trying to claim for yourself. You cannot, I repeat, be a sinner and a saint. You cannot be holy and a sinner. We are not talking about outward actions, but a state of being, who you are (I hope) spiritually now that Christ has come into your life, the blood has washed you clean and the Holy Spirit has quickened you.
Back to Romans 7 and 8 for a moment:
Rom 7:22-25 KJV For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Wretched (As defined int eh Strong's)
G5005
ταλαίπωρος
talaipōros
tal-ah'ee-po-ros
From the base of G5007 and a derivative of the base of G3984; enduring trial, that is, miserable: - wretched.
Total KJV occurrences: 2Rom 8:1-39 KJV There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. (13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? (32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? (33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. (34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. (38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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You cannot, I repeat, be a sinner and a saint. You cannot be holy and a sinner. We are not talking about outward actions, but a state of being, who you are (I hope) spiritually now that Christ has come into your life, the blood has washed you clean and the Holy Spirit has quickened you.
Amen. My church has gravitated more towards this. Yet growing up, they taught the old sinner saved by grace message. And I know this is just recently something I've learned. By thinking we're sinners, we're effectively dwelling on a negative thought. By knowing we're not sinners anymore but are now saints, we have our minds focused more on holiness and through such focus, our outward actions can begin to shift and line up with our belief that we are holy and no longer sinners. -
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I'd also add Romans 3. All of Romans...all Scripture. But to this issue, I think Romans 3 can also help answer this.
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Sorry but I'm listening to Romans right now and this too stands out in Romans 5.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
So as even those who had not sinned became sinners over Adam's disobedience, those who have sinned became righteous over Christ's obedience. Because of our love for Christ, we hate sin, but if we do sin, Christ is our advocate in that HE has made us righteous despite our abilities to adhere to the letter of the law. -
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Why stop at 24? 25 shows Paul was thankful that he was no longer condemned for this because he now serves God with his mind. We can't stop in Scripture. We have to read it all and in context. If we live in fear that we're forgiven one day but not the next, we don't follow Christ's words that we're not to live in fear.
And as LT said, continuing on, Romans 8:1-4 explains it even further.
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
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