What do you think?

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 9, 2016 at 7:48am

Questions 1, 2 and 4 require only one response. Give one clear teaching from Scripture that supports those wild hypothesis.

Question 3 is not even relevant since God is omnipresent, therefore every action past, present and future performed by any and all of God's creation are in His presence.

Your final question omits one important point. Angels and humans are created beings, and are different beings. We are not given a lot of detail regarding the creation and existence of angels, but we do know that God chose man uniquely to be created in His image and that He breathed the breathe of life into Adam. If there was ever a chance for Satan in the past it is not revealed in Scripture, and from Scripture there is every reason to believe that there was no second chance. We do know that there is no chance now and that hell was created for Satan and the fallen angels and this was part of God's original creation ... thus He knew that Satan and the other angels who followed him would fall.

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Permalink Reply by Johnathan on January 12, 2016 at 1:07pm

Here is my views question no.1. Did Satan get a 2nd chance to Repent?
The only way I can understand and explain in when we consider the Fall of man.
Now, here is Adam & Eve, they have just sinned. (Gn.3:7)

A 2ND CHANCE FOR MAN
After man had sinned, God passed judgement, I see that God had a fear. Fear for what?
We find it recorded in (Gn.3:22) "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: AND NOW, lest he put forth his hand, and take ALSO of the Tree of Life, and eat, AND LIVE FOREVER"
This is what God was so fearful about that man should eat also of the Tree of Life in his sinful condition, and become an ETERNAL sinner.

NO 2ND CHANCE FOR LUCIFER
We should look at the difference in creation. Man was made imperfect, mortal being while the angels was created perfect eternal beings.
Thus when Lucifer and his angels sinned, they became ETERNAL sinners, and there's absolutely NOTHING that God can do for an eternal sinner.
Should man have become an ETERNAL sinner, what sacrifice is there for an ETERNAL sinner to take away his sin???
Therefore there could be in no wise be a 2nd chance for Lucifer and his angels when they sinned.

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Permalink Reply by Johnathan on January 12, 2016 at 1:44pm

Reply by LT - TheNET Coordinator on Saturday

Question 3 is not even relevant since God is omnipresent, therefore every action past, present and future performed by any and all of God's creation are in His presence.

If I am entitled to my opinion and disagreement I would like to make my objections now. I definitely understand this view, but sin can never have originated in that perfect place called Heaven.

Now I do believe that God is omnipresent, but Jesus clearly showed us that God Is in Heaven, the Most High Heaven, "Our Father who ART IN Heaven...." and not "Our Father who are omnipresent, everywhere..."

Jesus also said that He's going to the Father, where, everywhere?

No He was taken up into the Most High Heaven where the abode of God is to prepare us a place there, not everywhere.

Again, "their angels do always behold the face of My Father which IS IN heaven"

Now what do we see in Gn.19:24? "Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah OUT OF heaven".

Who was it that rained brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven, it was the Word that became flesh, in a theophany body.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 12, 2016 at 4:43pm

You are absolutely welcome to your opinion.

We know Psalm 139 teaches us that there isn't a place in all of God's creation where we can go that He is not. We also know that God did not create a perfect place and an imperfect place. Rather we know that God created and proclaimed it all good. The fall of the angels is one event and the fall of man another. The fall of man ushered in a change to all of creation as it now groans awaiting its liberation.

Though we can assume that Jesus appeared in what is called by many "theophany" we cannot make that statement with certainty as it is not clearly stated in Scripture. Thus, we also cannot claim as fact that it was Jesus who rained down destruction on Sodom and Gomorrah. Possible? Yes. Probable? Yes. Known fact? No, that is unless we simply acknowledge that God (the Godhead) brought this destruction and by this virtue attribute it to Jesus as well.

We know that Jesus has chosen to take on a physical body. We know that in this state He is in one place at a time, though able to travel at will as seen in Scripture. Thus stating that Jesus is in heaven to prepare a place for us is accurate. To state that the throne of God sits in heaven is accurate. To state that God rules only from there is inaccurate. Again, the Godhead is one and thus anywhere (which is everywhere) we find the Godhead we find Him ruling as He is always sovereign, and there are no lesser parts of God distributed throughout His creation.

To understand where sin started regarding man is simple. Sin began in the heart and led to an outward action. Satan's sin is that of pride and that too is a heart issue. This simply means that sin performed is only the result of sin realized in the desires of the being. With that as the understanding we then realize what Jesus means by saying one has committed adultery not by the action only, but is guilty if in thought only without ever acting on that thought.

So, again we know that sin has been committed in the presence of God regardless of the physical location and these sins continue to be committed before God in various places of His creation.

Lastly, God is going to destroy the current heaven and earth by fire and bring about a new heaven and earth.

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 12, 2016 at 4:49pm

Did God really have a fear? Knowing past, present and future was there any reason to fear? Being the Creator of all and Sustainer did He have to fear that man would eat from the tree He created?

Thus when Lucifer and his angels sinned, they became ETERNAL sinners, and there's absolutely NOTHING that God can do for an eternal sinner.
Should man have become an ETERNAL sinner, what sacrifice is there for an ETERNAL sinner to take away his sin???

This is all an assumption. Do you believe that the blood of Jesus is incapable of cleansing man whether he had eaten from the tree or not? Whereas you assume to know why Lucifer cannot repent and be saved based on physical issues, I simply rest in the understanding that it is God's will to have extended salvation to man, created in His image, and not to angels. I also accept that God chose the blood as the payment, but in no way believe God was bound to having to use blood because some external force demanded it of God in order for man to be saved. If we accept that God had no choice then we devalue God and believe that some external power rules over God. Rather, we accept that God is sovereign and has bound Himself to His Word and will to act in accordance to what He has determined to be the method and as to whom He will have mercy on and as to whom He will not (i.e. angels and men).

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Johnathan on January 15, 2016 at 2:37pm

Here we go again, another long discussion from Johnathan out to annoy us, LOL

God ordained it, "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin"

Cain's sacrifice was rejected. Abel gave God the right sacrifice typifying the sacrifice that was to come by who's blood is the remission of sins as ordained by God, "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

"This is cup is the new testament/ covenant in My BLOOD...."

There was no other way for man to be saved, and by this I do not limit the power of God.

Didn't God also lead by example by making the 1st sacrifice  to clothe the nakedness of man?

ANGELS CREATED ERTERNAL BEINGS

1)     Neither can they die any more:

2)       for they are equal unto the angels;

3)       [ and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.]  (Lk.20:36)

Here Jesus plainly said that angels is created eternal beings, not that God has no power to destroy the fallen ones completely, but because chose to make them that way.

We will be equal unto angels, and how will we be equal, we will NOT die. [ETERNAL BEINGS]

Therefore, again I stress my point that angels were created Eternal beings and when some sinned, they became ETERNAL sinners

 

WHY NO 2ND CHANCE FOR THEM

Scripture is very clear what happens with an Eternal Sinner [pertaining to angels]

 

(2Pet 2:4 [KJV])

For if God spared not [the angels that sinned], but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

There was NO 2nd chance whatsoever granted to them.

 

(Jude 1:6 [KJV])

And the angels which kept not [their first estate], but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

FOUND NO PLACE FOR REPENTANCE

 

SIN IMPUTED TO SATAN

It is written concerning the sons man that, "Where there is NO Law, sin cannot be imputed"

If the sin of the fallen angels were imputed to them, then there must have been a law as there is for the sons man.

 

(Ps 103:20 [KJV])

Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

When Satan said in his heart, I will be like the Most High, what commandment could he possibly have broken but, the very commandment the Blessed Saviour was using to overcome him, that pertaineth to man, "Thou shalt worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve"

 

When Eve sinned, what commandment did she broke but "Thou shalt NOT covet...." [she saw that the fruit wasgood for food...."]

So the Law of God long existed before it was given on 2 Table of Stone. God implanted it in the conscience of man [The Law of Conscience]

The Law of Conscience was 1st written in The Conscience, then on the Tables Of Stone, and then by the Spirit on the Tables of the Heart.

The Spoken Word of God long existed before men were inspired to bring to us the Written Word.

It is said about the angels of "hearkening unto the voice of His Word. What Word existed in their time but [The Spoken Word]

 

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 15, 2016 at 3:59pm

You make a lot of assumptions, the greatest being that of attempting to limit God.

You may also want to study what "eternal" means before attempting to broad brush it.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 16, 2016 at 11:29am

Good point, LT.

I will add, regardless of what is one's manner of reasoning, since most arguments have complex structures, making the best possible case for one's position means mapping and analyzing these structures so that subsidiary claims are joined to support the main claim and it's resolution. Additionally, when an inference is made to link evidence to the claim, then that inference must be justified. I'm not sure here if the inference being made is that like things should be treated alike or that the only way God isn't morally wrong for treating fallen Angels differently is to establish that humans and Angels aren't alike. We know from scripture that the two beings weren't created alike. I want to say duh to the forum's question (not to you) of What do you think? I think, "Duh. Creator God is who (not what) made Angels so different from humans."

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on January 12, 2016 at 1:46pm

What Scripture says the angels were created perfect & man imperfect? Where in the Scripture does it say God has fear?

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on January 12, 2016 at 7:19pm

Exactly

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Permalink Reply by Johnathan on January 15, 2016 at 2:04pm

My dear fellow JB thank you 4 your sense of humor and attitude. People like u makes it worthwhile 4 me to be here and give more long discussions and annoy some folks who doesn't understand my manner of reasoning, LOL

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Permalink Reply by Carla on January 17, 2016 at 10:31am

Hi Johnathan;

I think I need to reword this question to make sure I'm understanding it.  You asked:

"But now have we ever thought about it why Satan never got the chance to Repent and make right with God, or did he get a chance?"

 I think you're asking:

'Why didn't satan get the chance to repent? 

I actually have thought about this...  mostly because I have two children who ask me all sorts of questions, so in our family we have had this wild discussion (as well as others).

My answer:  I don't think satan would have needed the chance to repent.  He was already there as 'The Morning Star' and 'The anointed Cherub' in Ezekiel 28.  He saw all that God is, and knew it personally.  His very existence was already created into perfection, beauty and love.  There was, at that point, nothing to repent from.  It wasn't until 'Iniquity was found in him' Ezekiel 28:15.  Before that he was blameless. (also Ezekiel 28:15)

Lucifer made a choice.  "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High." Did you notice in this passage all of the "I wills. " He said he would exalt his throne above the stars of God. The word "stars" here does not refer to what we see in the night sky. It refers to the angels of God. In other words, "I will take over heaven, I will be God."

Now--this is his iniquity.  I wonder how long the process was for him to decide to rebel against God.?!?  I wonder what the root of it was.  In my limited understanding I think it was that God allows for us to have free choice.  We are free to choose God or reject Him.  Lucifer (satan) chose to reject and rebel.  At that point, there was no opportunity for repentance.  At that point iniquity was found in him.  He had seen God and known God...face to face.  I believe satan knew exactly what he was doing.

Pride is dangerous.

You also asked:

"What then makes him and his fallen angels so different from man that we got Grace and they NOT?"

I think you're asking:

How are the angels different from man?  Why did we receive grace, and they did not?

Hebrews 12 says:

²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of ^[h]angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, ²⁴ and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Verse 22 talks about a 'myriad of angels'.  Verse 23 talks about the 'general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven'.  These are two separate groups.  One is 'angels', the other is 'humans'.

The angels were already created prior to the creation of everything else...including Adam and Eve. 

Job 38 says: ⁴ “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
    Tell me, if you know so much.
⁵ Who determined its dimensions
    and stretched out the surveying line?
⁶ What supports its foundations,
    and who laid its cornerstone
⁷ as the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels^[a] shouted for joy?

By this we know the angels were created first, and they witnessed God's creation.  They saw what He did.  They know who HE is.  To turn away from HIM now is lunacy....never mind turning away from HIM AFTER & WHILE witnessing what HE did and who HE is.  I think Pride is the best explanation of how it can happen.

We (humanity) had to be shown who HE is....  That's why Jesus came....to show us who God is.  It's Himself of course.  Jesus is God in the flesh.  

The angels were created knowing God and already in fellowship with Him, seeing His greatness.

We were created separated from God and born into sin.  At the point of our birth, we did not know who God is.  Jesus came to set us free, and to show us who God is.  Hallelujah! 

The bible points us to Jesus, so we have received Grace.  The angels did not need Grace, they didn't need the bible, they already knew.  The two are incomparable.  Totally different.

Interestingly enough...  satan tried to tempt Eve with the same thing that he himself was taken over by.  Satan said to Eve " “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”  Satan wanted to be like God, and he knew that would be the thing that would cause anyone to stumble and rebel. 

Anyone who wants to 'be like' God or even 'be God' for that matter, will reject God as who HE is. 

There's only room for one God. 

It will either be ourselves putting ourselves in His place, or it will be God Himself.

Joshua 24

15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Blessings, Carla

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