All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Some of the Scriptures that cause me to think that a Christian can walk away from God.
Many Christian's believe that once we are saved then we can't move away from God's salvation. There are many threads written about this. But it is some of these passages that cause to me think otherwise.
John 15
The Vine and the Branches
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Matthew 25
The Parable of the Bags of Gold
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’
21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’
23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mary O on
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I don't believe you can lose your everlasting life. However, this is food for thought...
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2 KJV)
The NLT calls it everlasting disgrace, yet another version says disgraced forever, and still another version says everlasting confusion. I don't know where they get the confusion idea.??
What I could find is that contempt is like a dishonor or scorn.
We have this wheat field we drive by each day on our way home. You can tell the difference between the weeds and the wheat, but to pull the weeds, you would have to trample all over the wheat plants. So they're letting them grow together. Or as it states in the parable, you may uproot the wheat and weeds together. So they wait till the end and separate it out. Another interesting thought to think about. The wheat bends or bows the weeds do not.
Love,
Mary
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Permalink Reply by Ananda Welikala on
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Being Born again has two sides to it like a coin does. One side says: God's Grace and Mercy saved me as in Eph. 2: 8-10. The other side says: I got saved because I placed my whole trust in the Lord's Cross-work to be born again.
The question is: Did I get born again or did the Lord make me born again. The answer is both. Like a coin, one side doesn't make it a legit coin. When God's Grace met head on with my Faith, I was born again. It's like two jet fighter planes colliding in midair. A moments delay by one plane would not cause the collision.
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The Creator of the universe is not only Almighty, but He's also ALL-knowing or Omniscient. He knows all there is to know from start to finish or A to Z. With that foremost in the mind we need to read Eph. 1:4. and 2: 8&9. Plus, Jude v.1 teaches that God has already PRESERVED His chosen ones. Jude v. 24: Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy..,
The above are verses which cannot be challenged because they are crystal clear in meaning.
Any other verses that are brought forth in arguing against Eternal Security have to be measured against the verses above!
Now suppose the hypothesis is true that a Born Again child of God can lose their salvation, then there arises a HUGE problem about the OMNISCIENCE and Omnipotence of the Creator God.
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If I may add...Jesus Christ said that once a person is born again genuinely, that he/she is IN HIM and He is IN the believer. Of course He is in the believer by way of the Holy Spirit Whom He sent down from the Fatrher in Heaven after He (Jesus) went up to the Father's House. That's a truth that nobody can side-track bc the words came from the very mouth of the Good Lord! That being the case, there is absolutely no way that Satan can "push" the H.S. out of the true believer and then SIT in the Seat called the heart. This is the reason that a BELIEVER can never lose thier salvation. Satan is a created being , created by Almighty God (Jesus Christ). Thus it's IMPOSSIBLE for the created being to overthrow the Creator!
Now 1 Cor.15 has it that there is a possibility that SOME HAVE BELIEVED the Gospel in VAIN. If that has happened, then it means that some believe that they are going to heaven at death but actually they will not bc they have believed in VAIN.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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John 15:1-8
Are we saved by our own merit? I believe this scripture speaks to the truth that anything that is in us that does not bear fruit will be cut off. Our salvation will not be cut off, but any part of us that is not abiding in Jesus will be cut off. This is any part that is not walking in obedience or submission to Him.
Matthew 25:14-30
Verse 24 “‘I knew that you are a hard man…” Does this servant know Jesus? Would you call Jesus a hard man? It sounds to me that there is a real lack of faith and trust in this servant towards Jesus, and it is very likely they did not know Him to begin with. There’s no salvation to lose if you don’t have it in the first place.
Matthew 13:13-23
This is not about losing salvation, but receiving it in the first place. It speaks to our fallen human nature and tells the truth about why people reject Jesus in the first place. How much does it matter to us that our roots grow deep? I read this as it is someone who doesn’t really know what they have or what they have been saved from. They are probably not saved. Who would walk away from that? Can we walk away? I suppose you probably could, but if you know what you have been saved from why would you?
Matthew 13:24-30
There are false converts. It’s not up to us to decide who is saved or not, but there are people in the church who do not know the Lord….they are the ‘weeds’ or the ‘tares’. Jesus will do the separating then the time comes.
1 John 2
15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
(bold emphasis mine)
Blessings, Carla
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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It comes down to...what is a Christian? Judas followed Christ but was he a Christian in the way the term should be applied?
Secondly...what is the will of God?
Once we accept Christ we are new creatures. Adam and Eve were new creatures. But then in order to be His true followers/disciples we must remain in Him and He in us.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (Jesus).
You remain in Him (in the Word). By remaining in the Word we are transformed by the renewing of our minds that by testing we may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. So how do we do the will of God unless we know it? How do we know it unless we remain in the Word and are transformed?
“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation” (2 Corinthians 5:17).
“Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened” (1 Corinthians 5:7).
We're already new, but now we have to be cleansed...renew our minds.
So can someone walk away? If they heard and believed, what else is required? Repent..."unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Judas believed in Jesus, but was he repentant? Many say they believe thinking they're free now to do whatever. They don't believe enough to repent...to WANT to be free from sin.
"If you abide in My Word then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
There is a period of growth from little children to young men to old men. During this growth we may feel condemned and by staying in the Word we will renew our minds to believe that condemnation isn't from God. We learn to use the Word to ward off wicked thoughts satan tries to tempt us with. By making us feel condemned, he tries to choke out the Word hoping we won't remain in it. But if the desire is on repentance and wanting to follow Christ, we will stay in the Word and bear fruit, because we truly believe in Him and repent and want to learn His will and how to submit to His will so we can be set free from sin.
Another way satan condemns us is to point out all our failures...it is not God who condemns. Satan has us looking at when we fail to bear fruit instead of having us see the fruit we have developed. Any change, no matter how small it may seem....when we accepted Christ did we start reading the Bible, did we start praying, did things start to bother us that didn’t before (relationships, bad habits, movies displaying ungodly behavior, going to church or going more, giving, caring about ithers, etc. etc.) If we keep looking at where we fail, we can stagnate further growth.
Philippians 3
8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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I find this whole idea still perplexing to me. It is inconceivable to me that anyone who has met the living Savior, understands the gravity of their sins and has been transformed through the work of the Holy Spirit would choose to walk away if they could and return to being spiritually dead.
In John 3 we see people who have been illuminated to the truth of Jesus, but not transformed. They are still the old creation and choose their sin over the offer of salvation. Whereas a child of God is a new creation, has experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, knows what is to be fully forgiven. They understand what they have been saved from and to whom they have been saved.
Being born again is more than a religious decision, it literally is being changed from spiritually dead to spiritually alive. To walk away would mean one is returning instantly to being spiritually dead, but that makes no sense since the spiritually dead do not know they are spiritually dead and if one who has been alive walks away and now realizes he is spiritually dead this does not make sense.
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Our pastor spoke about being new creations two or three weeks ago. He said we are made new when we accept Christ but we don't see a complete overnight change so we don't feel new and don't truly recognize that we ARE new. That by realizing we were made new and truly grasping this, we start to act new.
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The Parable of the wheat and tares means exactly what it says. Pull the tares out and burn them. Pull the wheat out and put them in God's Barn.
A good example of tares is Judas Iscariot.
In every assembly (church) there are wheat and tares sitting next to each other. There's no way the pastor or deacons could know how to separate the two kinds. Only in heaven we will know who were wheat. In heaven we will never remember any of the tares, even if it was ones of own family. God said : I make all things new. That's the situation in heaven. Our old brains will be gone because they are all EARTHY. Nothing earthy will enter into God's presence. Earthy things are sinful things. Suppose we remembered our loved ones who did not make it to heaven, our lives will be miserable and heaven would not be a joyful place for us.
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Yes there are tares among the wheat but that can't the only thing that parable could mean as evidenced by the other verses. Take John 15 for example:
If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
No one can remain in Christ unless he was IN Christ to begin with. One has to accept Him. But if it isn't a true acceptance in one's heart they won't remain in Him and become what is spoken of in Matthew 13:
20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
How does one have root? Everything in Scripture on this points to remaining in Christ in order to grow and bear fruit. Even Jeremiah spoke of the tree planted by water (or living water), that sends it's roots out. Without the water, the roots have nothing to grow on. As Jesus said if we remain in Him (Who is the Word that became flesh) we are truly His disciples...one who follows and learns as an apprentice. But we can't truly be disciples or bear fruit unless we stay in the Word and get transformed. If we walk away and give up on the Word then we must not have had a deep enough desire for true repentance.
So by all the supporting Scripture, the wheat and tares at least refers to those who accepted Christ but fell away. Reminding us to be more aware of our own propensity to fall away than be concerned with who around us will or will not be in heaven.
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Our sinful human nature always pulls towards Satan. Ps. 53 tells me that. "No, not one" good person is the verdict from All-knowing God about us human beings, no matter how long we have been real Christians. That's why 1st John 1:9 is still valid even though all human sin was wiped off by the Sin-cleansing Blood of Jesus Christ. The above verse is sandwiched between two very important verses about our sinful nature! Jude 1 tells me that the Holy Spirit is the One Who KEEPS me PRESERVED after having been SANCTIFIED. V. 24 in Jude tells me that the H.S. of Jesus is ABLE to keep me from falling away.
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