Pre or Post Tribulation

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 13, 2013 at 8:18am

There is also mid-trib and pre-wrath views that could be considered, but these would align more with pre-trib on this verse. The key to your question is defining the meaning of "the hour of trouble." The two camps you presented hold different views on what that means. Pre-trib see it as the Great Tribulation, the pre-wrath see it as the wrath of God poured out at the 6th seal (if my memory serves me). I forget what the post-trib believe since I am not post-trib :-)

 

Lord Bless,

LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 13, 2013 at 12:01pm

When I was younger, I saw a movie in my church about the Tribulation.  It showed all these people disappearing, and then after, some that were left accepted Christ but had already been left and had to go through the 7 years of Christ's wrath poured out on the earth, through the beheadings, earthquakes, giant scorpions, the water turning to blood, etc. etc.  And I've read the Left Behind books, which are similar to that old movie I saw. 

I know that in this world, we will have trials and tribulations, but THE Tribulation is more about when God is sending things onto the earth, His judgments on the world, the opening of the seven seals.  And neither here nor there as we must be ready at any time He comes, I would just find it not to offer much in the way of hope (when we're told to be hopeful and not like the unbelievers) to think we could end up going through all that.  But then I think of those in foreign countries who go through so many atrocities.  It's just a hard one to wrap my mind around and made me curious.  But not enough I will lose any sleep over it.  ;-)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Colby on September 13, 2013 at 1:04pm

        Interesting question!  And there's a third view, too: mid-tribulation.  I look forward to reading the responses, and I may have more to say as I ponder them and dig into the Scriptures.

        Eschatology, the theology of the end times or last days and the second coming of Christ, is a subject with which, frankly, I'm not well versed.   Some think of it as a distant event, far off in the future, with which they need not be concerned; others are convinced that the apocalypse is imminent, that they will live to see it, and some (including entire ministries) seem to have an unhealthy obsession or preoccupation with the end times. 

        There are four main views of eschatology, and further complicating things is that within each there are different permutations and terminology we have to wrap our heads around, not the least of which is whether the rapture is pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib.  Informed Christians studying the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation, have come to different interpretations about the timing or sequence of events that will lead up to the second coming of Christ.  On this, I can't say that I have formulated an informed point of view, though I believe the Bible is clear that Christ will fulfill his promise and come again; that there will be a new heaven and a new earth, as described with beautiful imagery by John's prophetic vision in Revelation 21.

        Where do the pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation points of view line up in the four main views of eschatology?

        1)  Premillennialism, Dispensational.

        2)  Premillennialism, Historic/Covenant.

        3)  Amillennialism.

        4)  Postmillennialism.

        This statement by Hank Hanegraaff (President of CRI) resonates with me.

Strange as it seems there are few areas of theology on which Christians are as divided  as eschatology. There just doesn’t seem to be a Christian consensus. Unfortunately, this lack of consensus has led to all kinds of division.

This [eschatology] is a topic of which we can have healthy debates, but not division. To be honest, I remember that Walter Martin held to a post-tribulational position — often times when pressed, he would say, “I’m a pan tribulationist, you know, whatever way it pans out.” What he meant is that whatever way it pans out I’m happy. What’s really important is that we are going to meet with the Lord in the air and we’re going to live with Him forever. These are the sorts of things that we ought to encourage each other with. So whether you’re pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, the real issue is, “whatever way it pans out.”

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 13, 2013 at 1:20pm

I like the way Hank Hengraaff put it.  I think the discussion I read was over a tribulation video on some site and people were arguing and practically calling one another names over this stuff.  Made no sense.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Colby on September 13, 2013 at 1:52pm

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, charity; in all things, liberty.

        I enjoy and find lively, biblically-informed debate to be helpful and informative, provided it doesn't degenerate into personal attacks and name calling.  We are to correct other with gentleness and respect and not to be quarrelsome (1 Peter 3:15).  "Iron sharpens iron" as Proverbs 27:17 says.

        I do believe there are certain core essentials of the historic Christian faith set forth in the Bible, which are non-negotiable, such as the formulation that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

        There are many other matters on which the Bible is not so clear and God gives us liberty, a correct understanding of which is not necessary for salvation.  These are matters that we can debate vigorously but need not divide over.  The importance of irenic debate to our Christian walk can't be over-emphasized.  As Christians, we need to learn to contend for the faith with passion--yet, at the same time, communicate with truth and grace. 

        Blogger C. Michael Patton offers some sound advice we should all take to heart:

I believe that we are to defend the faith. I believe that we are to contend for the faith. One of my great loves in theology is the discipline of apologetics. But sometimes our zealousness for our faith can have the opposite effect and actually undermine our witness. We can shame God. What if God read your posts?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Charles Burwell on September 14, 2013 at 9:13am

Colby

Amen on your excellent comment.

 

God bless

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Charles Burwell on September 14, 2013 at 9:12am

Seek Ye First Your comment about the 'people arguing and practically calling one another names over this stuff' reminded me of a quote I heard once about the ongoing'debates' over post ,pre or mid tribulation. The man said that "most 'debates' over post, pre or mid tribulation end up being pure tribulation." I have heard 'debates' over this issue for over 30 years and there seems to be no more of a consensus over the issue now that there was when I first heard of it. I personally believe that the weight of scripture falls on the pre - trib side of the 'debate' but I will no longer 'debate the issue with anyone due to the potential for 'unchristian behavior' ( to put it mildly). I am in toal ag

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 6, 2015 at 7:01am

While I have a moment...LOL

Was listening to some TV preaching this morning and they both spoke of the tribulation. That brought back to mind something I'd said here. So I see this old thread and saying I'd elaborate but never did for some reason.

But I'll add now my thoughts on this as I've studied this topic awhile back.

We have the seven seals or tribulation:

The First Seal - Conqueror
The Second Seal - War
The Third Seal - Famine
The Fourth Seal - Pestilence
The Fifth Seal - Tribulation and Martyrdom
The Sixth Seal - Earthquake, sun turned black, moon turned blood red, stars fell to earth, sky receded, mountains and islands removed.

After the 6th seal:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13-17
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Saints raptured as stated throughout Scripture no more hunger, thirst, tears, heat. Jesus speaks of this day to come to all who believe in Him.

THEN comes the 7th seal bringing an end to the tribulation and beginning the 7 woes or..."I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." Revelation 3:10

The Seventh Seal -
The First Trumpet - Hail and fire, third of the earth burned up.
The Second Trumpet - Sea turned to blood, a third of the creatures in the sea died, a third of the ships destroyed.
The Third Trumpet - Third of the waters turned bitter, many die
The Fourth Trumpet - Third of the sun, moon & stars turn dark.
The Fifth Trumpet - Locusts like scorpions.
The Sixth Trumpet - Third of mankind killed.

The Seventh Trumpet -
The First Bowl - Painful sores
The Second Bowl - Sea becomes blood and everything in sea dies.
The Third Bowl - Rivers and springs become blood.
The Fourth Bowl - Sun scorches people.
The Fifth Bowl - Kingdom of beast plunged into darkness.
The Sixth Bowl - River Euphrates dried up, evil spirits like frogs performing miraculous signs,
The Seventh Bowl - Armageddon

So I guess we have to first define the tribulation and it seems to me to be the 6 seals and then the rapture or post tribulation rapture and then God's wrath on the earth for some time after the actual tribulation.

And frankly let's review the 6 seals.
Conqueror
War
Famine
Pestilence
Martyrdom
Earthquake, sun turned black, moon turned blood red, stars fell to earth, sky receded, mountains and islands removed.

Seems we already have much of this going on.

So....thoughts?

• ▶ Reply