Saved after the rapture?

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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on June 9, 2015 at 7:39pm

Didn't Hal Lindsey start that?

I have a lot that I'd like to say regarding this, because I do believe it's an important issue....especially if people will believe they will be saved after Christ Jesus comes back the 2nd time.  The Bible says nothing about a 3rd or 4rth time.  

I need to get some sleep...and may not even have time until this weekend.  But I would like to discuss.

All I will say right now...just something to think about.  As in the days of Noah.  Once those doors were sealed and closed by God there was no opening them.  It's a sobering thought.

Good discussion topic Ribbon.

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on June 10, 2015 at 1:51pm

I am picturing a Hal Lindsey. The name sounds familiar but the man I am picturing looks like a tv actor from the past.  I will look his name up. Thank you I look forward to reading what you post on this subject.

Thank yall for the scriptures . I will reread them again and try to understand them.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on June 11, 2015 at 5:13am

The word 'rapture' doesn't occur in the scriptures, but there is a teaching of a 'carrying away'.  It's not meant to be debated over, this is given to us as an encouragement. 

It doesn't say this is the Lord's return as we will be 'caught up in the air', this will not be visible to non-believers except that we will be gone.  At the Lord's coming it will be visible to all.

50 I tell you this, brothers: qflesh and blood rcannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. sWe shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and wthis mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

x“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, gthat you may not grieve as others do hwho have no hope. 14 For isince we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him jthose who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you kby a word from the Lord,4 that lwe who are alive, who are left until mthe coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For nthe Lord himself will descend ofrom heaven pwith a cry of command, with the voice of qan archangel, and rwith the sound of the trumpet of God. And sthe dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be tcaught up together with them uin the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so vwe will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"

Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html#i...

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Permalink Reply by Seek on June 10, 2015 at 6:35am

First I'd like to start with pre-tribulation.  I read a passage one night that just opened my eyes to all those saying Christians will go through the tribulation. 

Revelation 3

³ Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. (The rapture)

⁴ Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

⁵ He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

⁶ He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (All churches,. not just Sardis)

¹⁰ Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Right there.  Christians will not see the tribulation.

So after?  "Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years".  Revelation 20:4

You don't need the Holy Spirit to turn to God.  But there are numerous passages that tell us that the Spirit comes when you receive Christ, when you believe and turn to Him and repent...then the Holy Spirit comes. 

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Permalink Reply by Carla on June 10, 2015 at 2:02pm

Scripture speaks about people who will be martyred for their faith.

REv 20:4

Rev 6:9

Rev 18:24

Rev 19:2

It also speaks about a 1000 yr reign that we (believers) will have with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom.

1 Cor 6:2

2 Tim 2:12

Rev 20:4 seems to be saying that even those who had not worshipped the beast or received his mark on forehead or hand would also be reigning with Him.  This seems to indicate that people can be saved after the rapture.

In Verse 3 we see that satan is bound for 1000 years.

My study notes refer to 1 Cor 6:2 and 2 Tim 2:12 saying that tribulation martyrs will be executed for refusing the mark of the beast.  This can't be prior to the rapture because we don't yet know what the mark of the beast is.

Tribulation believers, along with the redeemed from both the OT and the NT eras, will reign with Christ for 1000 years (while the enemy is bound)

REV 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was given to them.  And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

verse 5 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed." 

This is referring to all unbelievers of all ages will not be resurrected until the Great White Throne Judgement.

There are two kinds of resurrections

The resurrection of life (for the righteous saved by the blood of Christ)

The resurrection of judgement (anyone who is judged by their own deeds because they are not covered by the blood of Christ)

Rev 20:11

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and hades gave up the dead which were in them, and they were judged, every one of them, according to their deeds.   Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.  This is the second death, the lake of fire.  And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

As I was typing this up something occurred to me....I've seen it before, but somehow it came to me with a clearer deeper more profound understanding.

There is nothing we can do to earn salvation.  We are saved because of what Jesus did.. IT's HIS deeds that have saved us.  But people who die a physical death without the covering of the blood of Christ, will be judged according to their own deeds....which is why they will be never be good enough to go to heaven.  Only Jesus is good enough.  ONLY HIS deeds are good enough to cleanse us from sin.  I'm sure you've heard the saying 'There is power in the blood'.  Indeed there is.  So anyone who dies without Christ, will be judged according to their own deeds. 

Rev 20:13 says:

Revelation 20:13New American Standard Bible (NASB)

¹³ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Revelation 2:23New American Standard Bible (NASB)

²³ And I will kill her children with ^[a]pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the ^[b]minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

Matthew 16:27New American Standard Bible (NASB)

²⁷ For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then ^[a]repay every man according to his ^[b]deeds.

So... If God looks at us and sees Jesus (for all who have repented and believed) we will be judged according to Jesus's deeds, because we are covered with the blood of Christ.

But....for anyone who rejects so great a gift, they will be judged according to their own deeds.  Sobering.

Please don't be so concerned with trying to understand if someone can be saved after the rapture or not...  Pray that people will receive Jesus now. 

Even if people can be saved after the rapture (scripture seems to be saying that they can).... At what cost? 

If you know and believe now that all that you hear about Jesus is true, and that He is who He says HE is, and that HE can do the things He says He can do, what are you waiting for?

Love you, Carla

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on June 10, 2015 at 2:41pm

I hold to the POV that the rapture and the Second Coming aren't synonymous. Here is an article explaining the difference.
http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

However, I hold to the belief of a pre- wrath rapture, and there are those who do survive God's wrath that will be poured out after the Church is caught away.

To me, it looks pretty bleak for all those Israelites who have died without being born again since the resurrection. Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel. Many accepted but many more rejected Him. Yet, from what I understand, God did make promises to the nation of Israel that God has not made to other nations.

As I read about Zacchaeus in Luke 19, I was impressed by the verses:
5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Does it mean salvation came to Zacchaeus without need of the new birth, simply because he was a son of Abraham who had faith and believed in Jesus and repented?

That was before the church age began.

If it means that, then after the church age ends there could be hope for Israel and for those not killed by the plagues, when they see Jesus at the Second Coming. Those still alive will have been saved by grace through faith as they were in the Old Testament before the New Covenant began.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on June 10, 2015 at 2:47pm

PS In my POV, the Holy Spirit won't leave with the Church but will stop restraining evil.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on June 11, 2015 at 4:32am

Silent? The question is whether one can be saved after the rapture. Akin to that, will the saved go through the 7 year tribulation?

I think scripture is pretty clear. The rapture won't be silent and the saved will be taken from the earth before the 7 years. The beheadings now are no different than Muslims beheading before. They're just on American soil now. Even Hitler killed many Jews but that wasn't the tribulation. It's just the evil in some people who won't turn to God. The tribulation will be far worse and people will know it's God.

1 Thessalonians 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Daniel 12:1-2 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The antichrist will be known then. Right now everyone speculates who that will be. 

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on June 11, 2015 at 5:03am

This was to reply to thewatchman's post which is not here now but I think I'll post this anyway.

There are several views regarding the millennium as well. This link explains the views. I don't hold to the viewpoint of everything expressed in the article which I posted regarding the rapture but I posted it to show that there is a scriptural difference between it and the Second Coming. Yes, I believe the rapture of the Church will be a silent catching away. I also believe in a new earth and heaven that will be created after the thousand year reign of Christ ends and His thousand year reign will begin at His Second Coming. The present earth in my POV will be renewed during His reign.

Here's the link explaining premillennialism with references and links to the other views of the millennium. I don't believe this earth will be dark and desolate and empty during the thousand years that occurs between the Second Coming and the second resurrection of the damned.

http://www.theopedia.com/Premillennialism

I'm very cautious to speak of end time prophecies and events but will share what I see in God's Word regarding my understanding of them, realizing that when they are actually happening then there won't be anymore doubt what is happening, but until then there are several views about these things.

To me, the Christian persecution going on now is no different than what the apostles and early Christians experienced and what has been taking place since the church age began. Hebrews 11:35-38. The great tribulation will be far worse than anything that has taken place before it begins.

Those who think the rapture occurs at the end of the great tribulation believe there will be no opportunity for people to be saved after the rapture. Those who hold to one of the other views love Jesus no less than they do but just see it differently. If it occurs pre-trib, mid-trib or pre-wrath, then, during the period of time between the rapture and the Second Coming, it will be the time of severe reign of evil which the Church will not endure or go through but in which many others who missed the rapture will turn to God for salvation and die as martyrs, and Jesus will intervene with His Second Coming before Satan destroys mankind and mankind destroys itself and a multitude will be left alive upon the earth. Each time in the OT when God poured out His wrath, a remnant was always left alive.

This is what I see in the Bible. It doesn't bother me if others disagree with it. I'm still learning myself but I've looked at the other views and actually used to hold to a-millennialism and even at one time considered replacement theology but my mind has changed.

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on June 11, 2015 at 6:10am

Watchman, I wish  your reply hadn't been deleted. I would like to have read it. 

I am reading and trying to learn.. thanks yall

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Permalink Reply by Carla on June 11, 2015 at 7:41am

Watchman,  If you're able to repost it would be great.  I didn't get a chance to read your reply either. 

You have valuable input.  Iron sharpens iron.

Blessings, Carla

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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on June 11, 2015 at 6:46pm

I didn't save the response I posted.  

One of the things I did say was how do you explain the rapture to those folks who are now being persecuted and killed for their faith?

I think that I might have asked, as well, is there more than one time that Christ Jesus will come back?  The Bible says many things about the last days, the day of the Lord, etc., but it doesn't declare that Christ Jesus will come back twice...i.e. once to retrieve the church then the next time to come back for those that have survived the tribulation.  Like in the days of Noah, there weren't any second chances.  Sodom and Gomorrah, there weren't any second chances.  There were many warnings tho.  This has caused much confusion throughout Christianity.  I find concern that we aren't preparing each other for the times of tribulation.  We here in the West are extremely relaxed and complacent.  How many are even aware of the deaths that are happening throughout this world for being a Christian.  

It has indeed been going on since the beginning....but that is no reason to disregard what is happening to our brothers and sisters.  I sometimes sense an almost weird kind of nonchalance...I know and hope that isn't the case, but it is a reality.  I suppose until it affects us/you, us/you will then understand.  

This is all off the top of my head, I would like to get into more of why I do not believe in some kind of early rapture, before Christ Jesus' second coming.  The Bible doesn't speak to me in this way at all.

I also would like to dig deeply into the 7 years of tribulation and why this amount of time has become the standard of time for the great tribulation?  Is this what most regard from the prophecies of Daniel?  Prophecies are so important regarding this.  Satan tricked the Jews, they believed that Christ Jesus would come back to reign and rule in an earthly kingdom, they were wrong....

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