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I do not permit a woman to teach
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 Corinthians 7:8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
This topic has been discussed before, and I've often seen people bring up 1 Corinthians 7 as being Paul pointing out he was saying this, not God, but that in 1 Timothy 2, he doesn't qualify it as his words so it must be God's words.
As this verse came to mind, the very first word seemed to jump out in my mind...
I!
If Paul were speaking for God, wouldn't he have said, the Holy Spirit has shown me that..., or God has revealed to me that....? Those who have long been against women teaching or leading use 1 Timothy 2 as the standard. And while led by God, many in scripture also were speaking as men. It is an account of Jesus, His disciples, prophecy, creation, etc. By those who were there. When we feel led by the Spirit to write (aka - what I'm doing right now), we write about what we witness and believe. So why would we think Paul didn't also write things as he felt and believed? In places, he said God told him something or the Spirit led him, so why do we assume those things when he does not say that?
I believe this verse is exactly as stated:
I (Paul - me, myself, I...alone) do not permit a woman to teach.
After all, Paul was living in a time where women were considered lesser creatures.
Also interesting to note: Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. In this he is correct...Eve was the one who was deceived. Being the one who was personally told not to eat of the tree though, Adam WILLFULLY disobeyed and did what Eve did or told him. All we know is she gave it to him.
Another thought regarding 1 Corinthians 7. Paul said he would prefer all remain unmarried. But what did God say?
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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And, no, Paul doesn't have to qualify every statement he makes as being from the Spirit, except Paul does qualify everything he said as being from the Spirit in 2 Timothy 3:16. What does God breathed mean? I know you like Gill's exposition:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,.... That is, all holy Scripture; for of that only the apostle is speaking; and he means the whole of it; not only the books of the Old Testament, but of the New, the greatest part of which was now written; for this second epistle to Timothy is by some thought to be the last of Paul's epistles; and this also will hold good of what was to be written; for all is inspired by God, or breathed by him: the Scriptures are the breath of God, the word of God and not men; they are "written by the Spirit", as the Syriac version renders it; or "by the Spirit of God", as the Ethiopic version
http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-16.htm
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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The further instruction in 1 Tim 3 does reflect and substantiate this teaching in 1 Tim 2. It seems apparent that Paul certainly did believe that the leadership of the church should be men. I think the question begin asked is, "Is this God speaking or Paul speaking on his own without divine anointing?"
I have been giving this some thought and still am struggling to dismiss this teaching as being from Paul only. Why would God allow this to be a part of Scripture? Should we dismiss these two chapters and remove them from Scripture. We believe all Scripture is inspired. I see the conversation has somewhat concluded.
I do have some thought on this and experience with it if anyone is interested in continuing the discussion.
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Since what Paul said is included in the canon of Scripture, I don't see how it would not be "God-breathed" since that's the word given in Scripture to describe Scripture. However, the case is made that we attempt to use the Bible's claims of inspiration to prove its inspiration, and doing that doesn't go over too well most of the time :)
I'll listen to what you have to say.
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Proving that there are problems with the leadership abilities of women won't help answer the question of whether or not Paul was speaking new revelation from Holy Spirit or only giving his own opinion. Maybe it is true that we shouldn't permit women to teach or to assume authority over a man simply because Paul didn't, but the question implied in this discussion is whether or not, while led by God, were many in scripture also speaking as men? Seek states, "It is an account of Jesus, His disciples, prophecy, creation, etc. By those who were there. When we feel led by the Spirit to write (aka - what I'm doing right now), we write about what we witness and believe. So why would we think Paul didn't also write things as he felt and believed? In places, he said God told him something or the Spirit led him, so why do we assume those things when he does not say that?"
What you've shared will not answer her argument, but it does give an example of challenges that are faced when women are in leadership roles. :) IMO
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Yes, you are right, it doesn't really prove anything. I decided to delete that post. It is a painful memory but real nevertheless. God is good. He did use some situations to spare my wife and me from some even greater painful times. We are so blessed and some people worked so hard and I don't want to belittle any effort on anyone's part.
I have been taught that this verse was directed to a certain culture that no longer exists. A clear reading of 1Tim 2 and 3 do tell us that the ministry for men and women are distinct in nature. The question still remains - are these verses authoritative to the church today. As to the meaning of the verses, there just doesn't seem to be much question.
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Roy,
I'm sorry. I didn't mean it that way. Your experiences do matter and it is important for us all to pause and look at our past experiences in light of God's Word and examine ourselves to see where, if we had only obeyed or encouraged others to obey the commands and instructions given to us from God, how much pain and unnecessary suffering would have been avoided, and then use those past examples as guideposts for present choices.
What I was attempting to do was to direct you to the actual question in this discussion, as it doesn't seem to me that Seek was intending to discuss whether or not women should teach men, as she worded it this way: This topic has been discussed before, and I've often seen people bring up 1 Corinthians 7 as being Paul pointing out he was saying this, not God, but that in 1 Timothy 2, he doesn't qualify it as his words so it must be God's words.
I think what is needed here is to address why what Paul said in 1Timothy 2 isn't just Paul's words simply because Paul said, "I do not permit ..."
I think what Seek wants to know is -- What makes it God's words and not just Paul's preference?
Perhaps she will clarify for us what she is asking but this is what I see that she's asking.
The word "I" is jumping out at her, making her believe that Paul and many others in the bible just told us their personal beliefs and opinions. Did they? If we settle this question, then the question of whether or not women are permitted to teach men will become moot.
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I do feel awful about it, Roy. My input is silly and nonsensical. I'm a good example of someone who should be silent.
It's not possible to speak or communicate "God's truth" to those who have rejected the witness of God's Word, creation, and even conscience.
Unless enlightened by God, no one can even begin to understand the "things of God," that are "spiritually discerned."
Still it doesn't sound right to tell someone, who might be truly seeking real answers, simply that the bible is inspired because we believe it is and God has personally shown us it is, or that it is inspired because it says so. I can understand walking away from those who clearly and adamantly reject this truth and saying nothing else to them, but for those who are seriously asking and can't discern the Scripture being quoted to them, then I guess I want to believe there is something we can do to get them to the point of considering that Holy Spirit did it, even if I must begin with a human argument (always having lots of prayer that something I say will be used by God to open their eyes, ears, and heart.)
I have two older sisters who agree with JW teachings and they accept only what is in the JW bible, which I reject, and their argument that what's in it is true doesn't work for me, simply because they believe it and say it's so and think I should, too. I need more to go on from them than just that. But that's a poor analogy. Yet, I don't want to just write them off. It's probably best just to keep quoting Scriptures to them. That's all I can do, really, and pray for them.
The teaching that Holy Spirit must open our hearts and enable us to understand the bible is, itself, in the bible and comes from the bible. That people say we need to read the bible and rely on Holy Spirit to make us understand it, both combined, still doesn't do away with the mistakes that are made in our interpretations of it. Therefore, it is often assumed by those who don't accept the inspiration of the bible that those who do believe it are individually interpreting it.
There's no excuse for rejecting the truth. I suppose that's the answer. If people reject general revelation, they are without excuse, as Romans 1 and 2 explains.
I'll leave you all to hash it out because I don't know.
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I also don't know how you deleted your comment without the thread being deleted because the other day I deleted a comment I made and the comments attached to it also were deleted.
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Another experience: I was a young man pastoring a church in Kansas. A saintly woman was a deacon there and the adult men's and women's Sunday school teacher. (Wow! I am really dating myself with some of these statements). The church was a Pentecostal church and I was beginning to challenge some of the Pentecostal teachings. (I was a stupid young kid. Some would say the only change in me since then is that I am no longer young. haha) Anyway, this saint and I begin to have some lengthy conversations. My young wife was almost always with me in these conversations. On one occasion, the lady said in a very high voice, "Roy, I don't care what is right or wrong, I just want you to pIreach what we have always heard."
She actually did say that but I know that was not exactly what she meant but she really did mean that somewhat. Sometimes we can get so accustomed to certain teachings that the teachings can mean more to us than the Scriptures.
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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1 Timothy 3: 1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Qualifications for Deacons
8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being foundblameless. 11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The Mystery of Godliness
14These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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