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John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
I'd like to get opinions on what this verse means to you.
From my own church's beliefs:
In water baptism by immersion, and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Hey Richard. I reread this and something caught my eye.
You said I Peter 3: 21 was telling us that baptism is demonstrating, publicly, one's trust in God removing eternal scars of condemnation in a person's body.
I've read and reread these passages and see them quite opposite.
Peter refers to the 8 saved by water during Noah's time, and says that "symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God."
Sounds to me that he's not saying us being baptized is symbolic of what Christ DID for us but was symbolizing what He WOULD do. It was symbolic then of a coming baptism by the Spirit.
You also said "Then coming up out of the baptism - clean...and JUSTIFIED." And this is a point I mention elsewhere in this discussion, some feel they're already justified and baptism isn't necessary.
And where Peter says we have the pledge of a clear conscience toward God would seem to be stating we're already clean and we know this is true.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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When I read this it seems to me that Jesus is emphasising the important role of The Holy Spirit.
The people were already being baptised with water...that wasn't a problem. However, they didn't understand the importance of the purification of the soul which can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit. They needed to be born again, and water baptism could never accomplish that. So essentially, He's saying water baptism is great, keep doing that... But Holy Spirit baptism is what is required to enter into the Kingdom of God.
Literal water baptism gives an outward expression of our hearts.. we make it publicly known that we are going to follow Jesus, I believe it's important because it reveals our devotion...but is not necessary for salvation.
Blessings, Carla
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I've not heard anyone preaching it was necessary for salvation, but that it's an after salvation requirement and if you don't do it, you're sinning...or something along that line of thinking.
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I've never heard anyone preach 'it's necessary for salvation' either. But I have heard people say they've heard that.
My pastor teaches that it's an act of obedience---It's an outward expression of an inward change, but not necessary for salvation.
I honestly don't see any reason to NOT be baptised. You mentioned that some people are terrified of water. I would hope that the pastor would spend time with that person reassuring them that they are safe. Their feet are touching the ground, and they have complete control over removing themselves from the water. People can be baptised in bath tubs, hot-tubs, a swimming pool or a kids pool in the back yard... It doesn't have to be a river or a lake or an ocean (I understand you never said it does). I'm only addressing the 'fear' that some people may have.
My Mom is terrified of water. She does not know how to swim and is terrified to put her head under water and lose control. We (my own family) have lived in the same house with a pool for 15 years, finally a couple years ago she finally went in and felt safe to float around the shallow end. She was baptised though...I'm pretty sure it was in a lake (I'll have to ask her to be sure). Everyone is different. I think that God ultimately helps us overcome our fears and moves us to a place of victory. We're all being renewed and sanctified at the pace that God knows is right for us. We're never forced.
Blessings, Carla
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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The testimony that kept coming to mind was the Ethiopian eunuch. He was the queen's eunuch. He had just left Jerusalem where he went to worship. He must have been a God-fearing man to be doing this.
An angel had told Philip to go to the area. He obeyed & encountered the eunuch. I've always envisioned this as the eunuch was in a beautiful chariot decorated as only a king or queen could decorate it. Philip sees him reading a scroll, which were very expensive then. Philip asked him if he understood what he was reading. The eunuch asked how could he understand if no one told him explained it. So, Philip proceeds to share the gospel with him. He accepted the gift of Christ.
We don't know how long they had traveled, if at all, before seeing water. The eunuch asked if he could be baptized. It's like I see him almost running to the water & desiring to take the next step in his new journey. After Philip baptized him, Philip disappeared.
I see the eunuch as having been so over joyed with his salvation that the first sight of water, he asked to be baptized. I think we as Christians should all have this desire. The moment we're filled with the Spirit, we desire right away to be baptized - a symbolic cleansing. My opinion of course.
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Well not all do have the "desire" even, for various reasons. I was baptized, not because I wanted to rush headlong in front a church full of about 200 people snapping pictures, some of whom were hurtful people, but because I thought it was required. It's required to be a member of my church anyway. They don't claim it's required for salvation but if you don't then you might want to examine if you're truly saved cause it's something we're called to do and we're not supposed to be ashamed of Jesus.
On my end, Jesus wasn't my shame, being on display of those sitting there judging me was. I'd spent so long having all my faults publicly pointed out that I was left thinking that someone was going to find something wrong with anything I did and point it out to me. It's what kept me in fear of going to the altar for awhile. Even after I accepted Christ, I feared going up for prayer. Stood there wanting to and praying hard because I just didn't know that I could. Then my friend Robin, who had no clue what I was praying or thinking came up and said God wants me to just take a step and he'll meet me halfway. It was still hard for a long time but has gotten easier and easier.
We don't instantly go from insecure to secure on being saved. A bold person is still bold and may need toned down on pride or bridling the tongue. A timid person will still be timid and will need to learn boldness.
There are also those who perhaps feel they ARE clean by being baptized into Christ and they don't need to prove it to others.
But when it's taught as necessary it can cause people to do it for the wrong reasons. And we SHOULD feel so secure in Christ that we feel we were completely cleaned upon salvation but many don't. We know we want Him, we're sorry for our sins and we know He sets us free. But we don’t feel free. We still have the same bondages life has taught us that He will re-teach. But for awhile, being baptized may feel like a lie. Because you don't yet feel clean, it's hard to stand up and pronounce you're clean.
I am taking part in cardboard testimonies tomorrow. If we'd done it a year ago, I wouldn't have felt I could say the things I am saying as my testimony.
Hopeless
Insecure
Negative
Searching for someone to love me
This is the hope I have...
I am secure in Him
He has turned my mourning into joy
He loves me with an everlasting love
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Good points. I received Christ much earlier than the day when I was submerged in believer's baptism. I was 19 and it was October and a Wesleyan pastor dunked me in a muddy creek. Not long afterwards, I met a young man who was attending a Christian college and he was a member of a different church, one I wasn't familiar with and when I shared my testimony with him, he said I wasn't born again until I was 19 and it had happened that day in the creek. That was the first time I heard it explained that way. In an earlier response in this discussion I shared my current POV about it, but for many years I thought one had to be baptized to be born again.
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Mind if I ask a couple of questions before I reply more? Did you desire to be baptized but due to the fear of doing it in front of people & the fear of being judged, you didn't want to do it? Or did you just not have that desire?
When you say that it's taught as necessary & it can cause people to do it for the wrong reasons? What wrong reasons would these be? Do you mean necessary as far as salvation necessary?
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At the time no, I didn't have any desire because I'd not even really gotten far in reading the Bible. I didn't even know what being water baptized actually meant. I knew....what they SAID, but didn't know what it meant inwardly. But I also knew it was a step I was taught to take rather than someone talking with me to explain why I should want to and helping me understand what it really meant and why I wasn't overcome with this joy right away. By making it part of church membership it excludes those who need understanding and not biased judgment. God is close to the brokenhearted but His own body has difficulty with that one.
But yes too I had a fear of going in front of others. I could be at the pew with my head bowed praying for strength to just take a step and knowing the message was what I needed...but in my mind I could see everyone sitting behind me watching me. I felt eyes of particular ones boring into my back. Worst was I heard in my mind someone exclaiming something like it's about time she went to the altar. Maybe God can straighten her out...even though I was already saved at that point.
When we're told it's necessary, we're not doing it out of love and joy.
I've even considered being re-baptized now that I've finally learned exactly what God did for me...rather than just because I was told to become a member.
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Worst was I heard in my mind someone exclaiming something like it's about time she went to the altar. Maybe God can straighten her out...even though I was already saved at that point. - Did you literally hear someone say this or you imagined someone saying it? If you literally heard it, that is one WOW statement. I'll reply tomorrow. I'm out of it. Been at the hospital with Tim part of the night.
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