Just Do It

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Seek on February 28, 2015 at 10:25pm

The only one I can answer is the first being that cancer, as any disease or illness is called an infirmity and scripture calls it a spirit of infirmity.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 1, 2015 at 5:39am

Seek,

A couple of things.

1) He s not called "infirmity" but rather it reveals what he has caused. He is a evil spirit who, most likely indwelt her, and caused the infirmity. The idea presented by most today when attempting to "name" an evil spirit is that is all the spirit is or can be. It is to believe that the spirit can only cause, in relation to our discussion, cancer. If the evil spirit departed from this woman and entered into another woman the evil spirit, in order to be "a" spirit of cancer could only bring cancer to the next victim. No, the concept is only that this particular disease, infirmity, is caused by an evil spirit. Recognizing causation is quite different from naming and limiting the evil spirit to only being "a" spirit of cancer.The NASB translates this verse as follows:

(NASB)  And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all.

2) Even if the understanding were, which I disagree with, to believe it is "a spirit of infirmity" we are taught that good Bible hermeneutics never builds a doctrine on one verse. There will always be other supporting verse that support the doctrine when they are read in context. There is no support for labeling the evil spirit in the Word of God.

Therefore, it is important to be sure we are dealing with a evil spirit or is it a result of living in a fallen world, with fallen people and in the fallen flesh? If it is an evil spirit labeling, giving it a name, has no value. Recognizing the damage it is doing is of little value. Basically we find in the Word of God that the evil spirits are simply told to come out (as they are being cast out) and then because the influence is gone the person heals.

I trust you are feeling better.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Mary O on February 26, 2015 at 11:27am

Hi God bless!

I'm a firm believer, always ask God. When I think I know, then I could be so wrong. It's okay to say...God, I do not understand. Would you please explain it to me?  Then, you wait for the answer and confirmation. God loves us, and we can trust Him to give us the answer. Then we're not running around thinking people are possessed when they're not. If they're oppressed, then we know that too. If a spirit is present, God can tell us what it is. Lists from classes are helpful,  but they pail in comparison to knowledge from the Living God. Remember perfect love casts out fear. I've never seen love fail.

Love,

Mary

Permalink Reply by Mary O on February 27, 2015 at 11:12am

Sorry about the homonym. "pale" in comparison. I'm human.   :-)

Brothers and Sisters, learn every single thing you can from God's Word. Search the Scriptures to the best of your ability. There are times you will experience situations beyond your understanding. Think of it as a pop quiz. You can't say just a minute let me get my Bible. You must know the Scriptures. But there will  be those situations that happen you will lack the experience.

A friend was in a very serious accident and wound up in the hospital. I decided to visit. I tried to enter the hospital room. The room was very heavy feeling and looked grey to me. These were demons. I knew it. I was ready to turn and leave without ever saying hello. God wanted me to pray for So and so. You see, I had never prayed and asked for healing for anyone before ever. I know what the Bible says, and I believe it. I just didn't know what I was doing as far as praying and healing. God asked me not to leave. Usually He says something like...Shhhh, It's okay. He may say...You can do this, I'm with you. God took care of the heaviness and greyness in the room. He said He would, and He did. It all lifted. He said now go and pray with So and so. We prayed together. So and so wanted to tell me what was wrong, but I told him there was no need because God took care of everything else I was sure He was going to say what was wrong too. So and so had a collapsed lung and a damaged heart, but he left the hospital in three days. I've never forgotten that lesson. How if you're meek, God can coach you through some heavy stuff and teach you as you go. You don't have to know oodles of Bible, but what you know, you must believe. Belief is required. God looks on the heart. One thing for all times is love. So and so was healed in the name of Jesus Christ.

Love,

Mary

 

Permalink Reply by Mary O on February 27, 2015 at 12:14pm

While I'm thinking of it. The Word says we are to not lay hands suddenly on someone. You asked why hasn't this man been delivered.

Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. (1 Timothy 5:22)

I don't know if you've tried it, but don't try it for the sake of finding out. Do we want to see people set free? Yes. If it were that simple, would everyone be set free? Yes. What does Scripture say? Acts 19 the seven sons of Sceva has a purpose. They were using the name of Jesus. What happens to a person who lays hands suddenly on someone? God must be with you and behind what you are doing. If God says no or I want someone else to do it. Then listen and don't do it. And consider, did they have belief? The spirit said...Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who are you?

Love,

Mary

Permalink Reply by Seek on March 1, 2015 at 5:47am

LT, here's another Copeland devotion from this morning and why I say I basically pick and choose by determining...does it line up with scripture?

Uncommon Protection
by Kenneth Copeland
“The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.” John 10:10

Considering how much the devil hates people and how dead set he is on destroying them, it’s no wonder we see so much tragedy and disaster in the world. In fact, it’s amazing that we don’t see more!

I asked the Lord about that one time and He told me it takes the realm of darkness a long time to set up major disasters. Take the aviation industry, for example. It’s highly regulated and works hard at policing itself because safety is its product. You take a highly regulated system like that and the devil has to work terribly hard to cause disasters.

He can’t just come roaring in and rip things up anytime he wants to. If he could, he’d knock every plane out of the sky tonight. But he can’t do it.

Why? Because he’s bound. The Bible says he’s bound to things that are common to man. He has to line up certain things in this natural, human realm before he can lay a finger on you. He has to use people to get his work done.

But, bless God, we’re not bound to what’s common to man. We’re free to use what’s common to God! We fight our warfare with uncommon weapons. What does that mean? It means you ought to have the devil wrapped up and sewed up. You ought to put him in a sack with a ribbon on top.

The devil can’t cause disaster in your life unless he has been given place. He can’t come in and start destroying and stealing from you unless he can get you into a place of sin, doubt, ignorance or disobedience. So if he’s been giving you trouble, ask the Holy Spirit to show you where you’ve let those things in. Then repent and get rid of them.

Once you’ve done that, pull out the weapons God has given you and fire away with both barrels. Pull out the Word. Pull out prayer. Pull out faith and use it to tie the devil in knots. Use the uncommon power of God to keep him bound and he won’t be able to put anything over on you.

The bold section is why I disagree. There are many Scriptures that show this to be wrong. Job's ordeal being a glaring one.

Nothing suggests he ever sinned. And in fact states the opposite in declaring his righteousness.

So does it mean he purposely wants to deceive or he mispoke or he didn’t cover everything because he was intending only to address sin?

So this is where I apply scripture and seek what is true in a message without worrying whether I will be deceived by a cult. To me it would mean God isn't able to make me stand but we know He is.

Perhaps a year ago such a devotion would have made me question if there was sin in my life, had me believing I was sinning somehow. But I've been in the Word enough to know the above isn't always the case. And that's always the key to being alert and discerning isn't it? Remaining in the Word.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 1, 2015 at 6:19am

Seek,

There is so much in this that can be addressed as incorrect in light of Scripture. I see what you have placed in bold and will come back to that. First let us look at this statement he makes:

You take a highly regulated system like that and the devil has to work terribly hard to cause disasters. Really? The devil has to work terribly hard to cause a disaster where man has highly regulated something ...mostly regulated by men who are not children of God and thus ones he already wields influence over. So the reason he does not knock every plane out of the sky isn't because God is in control and Satan is limited, but rather because man has highly regulated aviation and this causes Satan to work really hard. Please forgive me, but I am not sure if I should shake my head in disgust or ROFL .... With that outburst behind me I simply ask can one show this is true from the Word of God? Is there one example of Satan wanting to do something but because "man" has regulated it he is handcuffed and has to work really hard ...

I asked the Lord about that one time and He told me it takes the realm of darkness a long time to set up major disasters. Hard to refute when one says the Lord told them ... that is if we do not go to the Word of God for confirmation. Where is the Scriptural evidence ... oh, I know (sorry for the sarcasm) because he said God told him I should believe it.  This is why some of these teachings are dangerous. They take a concept and build upon it layer upon layer and yet leave out Scriptural evidence. In fact the article does the following ... he builds a concept using a worldly illustration and then inserts it into the doctrinal belief as if the doctrine is defined and confined by what has been stated from a worldly illustration that too cannot be proved.

Pull out faith and use it to tie the devil in knots. Please ... stop, you are killing me ... Faith is not something we pull out, nor is prayer. We walk in faith, we are people of faith, our lives as children of God require faith. While it is true we may be at different levels of maturity the idea that faith is a weapon you pull out is not Biblical. Come here Satan and let me smack you with my weapon of faith or weapon of prayer ... really?

Regarding what you put into bold ... you make good points and I appreciate your honesty. At the same time I must point out two problems with wanting to be influenced by and then posting these things (even though this one is to show the error).

1) There are many people who come to this site and read what is posted who will never type one word. A lot of these people are seeking Jesus and do not yet know Him and others are relatively new in their walk. These people are not ready to discern the truth from the error in such articles. Exposing them to such teaching and various teachers who IMO tend to not align with basic Biblical fundamentals puts them at risk of being led down the wrong path and/or develop a Biblical view that will have to be fixed at a later date which is much harder than starting with a clean slate.

2) Though you recognized what you put in bold as error today, and admit a year or two ago it would have negatively impacted you (assuming that is how you meant it) what is to say that there isn't things being taught that you are now a year or two away from discerning. Noting that this potential is true of all of us we ought to use a guiding principle IMO. My advise is when you come across a trend that strays from Biblical truth and adds to it it is best to stay away all together. There are some exceptions, one of which is when a person is a teacher they often need to know what others are being influenced by.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Seek on March 1, 2015 at 7:48am

I didn’t focus on the rest because the one paragraph I could easily dispute based on job. Others I'd need to spend more time in searching scripture and prayer. The entire devotion to me didn't have any impact except for the Scripture portion.

I do understand how it can affect newer Christians but how does one grow if we try to protect them from the world? Truth is, we can't protect them from everything. So maybe pointing out the errors here is better than trying to avoid such teaching altogether? And frankly we need to be immersed in the Word. If we're not in the Word, we're only opening ourselves up to deception. If we remain in the Word though we are His disciples and He will make us stand.

The first and foremost thing any new Christian needs is to understand the importance of getting in the Word. It's the only way they will overcome being deceived.

It's why I stress it and always try to offer suggestions to those who don't think they have the time or can understand it. I had people telling me things they felt was Biblical and people who tried helping me understand some things but all any of it did was cause confusion. The Word only will clear confusion not anything we can tell people.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 1, 2015 at 1:09pm

The first and foremost thing any new Christian needs is to understand the importance of getting in the Word. It's the only way they will overcome being deceived.

Absolutely the best defense once we become children of God is developing a deeper grasp of God’s Word. If we were to remove the Word of God from the equation, and some just ignore it even when it is available, what do we have to compare teachings with? Teaching is always to be compared with the Word of God. Recently a man who had previously pastured a mega-church stated that as long as the church uses 2000 year old letters it will become more irrelevant (slightly paraphrased by me). He just tossed the Word of God to the curb …

 

I didn’t focus on the rest because the one paragraph I could easily dispute based on job. Others I'd need to spend more time in searching scripture and prayer. The entire devotion to me didn't have any impact except for the Scripture portion.
Ok. If one who professes to be a teacher is prone to obvious error should we really spend the time studying their messages? What if the error was harder to find and not so obvious? I was not trying to pick on you by any means when I addressed the article. I felt it was important to highlight the other portions since they are in the article and it is what I am compelled to do.

I do understand how it can affect newer Christians but how does one grow if we try to protect them from the world?

Actually there are two parts to this. 1) There is an aspect of the world that we want to help guard brothers and sisters against. The interesting thing is that many of the things in the world are fairly easy to discern. In most of these cases it is not a matter of discerning, but rather rejecting and choosing self over God’s way. 2) We need to definitely seek to help guard people from errant teachings that exist in the church. Many of these are harder to discern, especially when they are part of a larger organization/group with a platform and a huge following that will defend the person while ignoring the teaching.

 

Truth is, we can't protect them from everything. So maybe pointing out the errors here is better than trying to avoid such teaching altogether?

You actually can do both. We seek to protect from errant teachings and correct errant teachings once influenced.

 

And frankly we need to be immersed in the Word. If we're not in the Word, we're only opening ourselves up to deception. If we remain in the Word though we are His disciples and He will make us stand.

It's why I stress it and always try to offer suggestions to those who don't think they have the time or can understand it. I had people telling me things they felt was Biblical and people who tried helping me understand some things but all any of it did was cause confusion. The Word only will clear confusion not anything we can tell people.

Are you saying that no one has been used of God along with the Word of God to help you see clearly? Mentoring, helping others to grow is Biblical just as verifying what is being taught is Biblical. If there is no accountability established we are prone to error and going in our own direction. There are many ways we can be held accountable, but accountable we must be.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Seek on March 2, 2015 at 11:47am

Are you saying that no one has been used of God along with the Word of God to help you see clearly?

When you don't know the Word, all you have is someone's word to go on, and if you have people with different views, and you've been taught wrongly all your life, people telling you things doesn't give you the "revelation" you need.  You're still battling the old teachings, wondering, well was this person right then or is this person right now?  You're confused between teachings until you've read enough of the Word yourself to gain understanding. 

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 2, 2015 at 12:55pm

Two thoughts.

1) That is why it is important for those who have studied the Word of God to challenge errant and questionable teachings since those who do not yet have a decent grasp of the Word are easily confused and led astray or at least an opportunity to hear an alternative voice to those who happen to be popular.

2) Getting into God's Word is paramount. At the same time we are often challenged or enlightened by Holy Spirit through the teaching of God's Word.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Seek on March 2, 2015 at 7:02pm

So who's studied the Word? I know atheists who know scripture pretty good. Some can even quote it. And when you haven't yet learned it and someone tells you something it says...do you take their word for it because they said they studied the Word?

Go to another debate here...Tithing.

So one gives scripture to prove we're supposed to tithe and another uses scripture to prove we're not.

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