Judging salvation

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 27, 2015 at 2:47am

I'm starting to worry about you. I never thought I'd see you at a loss for words.

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Permalink Reply by Hank Roberts on January 16, 2015 at 7:30am

Haven't been on this forum for quite some time, but wanted to comment on this. 

First, we are certainly called to make sound judgments, so your initial statement is in fact wrong.

Second, the first sentence is self-contradictory: we are not to judge but we are to judge a person by their fruit. 

Third, we have no responsibility to make judgments about the spiritual estate of others.  If their actions and profession lead us to believe they are fellow believers, then we treat them as fellow believers.  If those things lead us to believe that they are not, then our goal is evangelism.  So our goal is discipleship, or evangelism: both are teaching roles.

What does the NT say about how to deal with someone who fails to live as obedient to God? 

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 26, 2015 at 10:02pm

Hank, I believe John 8:1-11 shows us how we are to treat people who are living in open sin. I believe everyone tries to minimize his or her own sinful contributions to failing relationships. I Know I'm guilty of doing this. We all sin and fall short but we have an ideal vision for life as God intends for it to be lived out (God has set eternity in our hearts) and we aspire to attain it, or at least aspire to live up to what we have already attained (Philippians 3:16)while often forgetting that we're in fallen flesh in a fallen world of fallen people but are still wanting others to live by that same standard to which we each have personally attained, when all are at different spiritual ages with some new to the faith and others who aren't yet really saved, and etceteras.

Here's a good article about judging. Sometimes people reveal their hearts and their motives, IMO, and even though we can't always see the motivation or the intention behind the actions, and God will judge that, we can know what is sin and what is not sin and judge if someone's words and actions are sinful.

Question: "What does the Bible mean that we are not to judge others?"

"Answer: This is an issue that has confused many people. On one hand, we are commanded by the Lord Jesus, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged” (Matthew 7:1). On the other hand, the Bible also exhorts us to beware of evildoers and false prophets and to avoid those who practice all kinds of evil. How are we to discern who these people are if we do not make some kind of judgment about them?

"Christians are often accused of "judging" whenever they speak out against a sinful activity. However, that is not the meaning of the Scripture verses that state, "Do not judge." There is a righteous kind of judgment we are supposed to exercise—with careful discernment (John 7:24). When Jesus told us not to judge (Matthew 7:1), He was telling us not to judge hypocritically. Matthew 7:2-5 declares, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." What Jesus was condemning here was hypocritical, self-righteous judgments of others.

"In Matthew 7:2-5, Jesus warns against judging someone else for his sin when you yourself are sinning even worse. That is the kind of judging Jesus commanded us not to do. If a believer sees another believer sinning, it is his Christian duty to lovingly and respectfully confront the person with his sin (Matthew 18:15-17). This is not judging, but rather pointing out the truth in hope—and with the ultimate goal—of bringing repentance in the other person (James 5:20) and restoration to the fellowship. We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15). We are to proclaim what God's Word says about sin. 2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us, "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage — with great patience and careful instruction." We are to "judge" sin, but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and its consequences—the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)."

http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html

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Permalink Reply by Hank Roberts on January 27, 2015 at 7:53am

"What does the NT say about how to deal with someone who fails to live as obedient to God?" "Hank, I believe John 8:1-11 shows us how we are to treat people who are living in open sin." Instead I suggest Matthew 18: 15ff.  We are talking about someone who "claims salvation" even if only at certain times. 

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.  But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.  If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."  ("Gentile and tax collector" is descriptive of someone who is an unbeliever, in this verse)

And how are we directed to treat an unbeliever?  We share the Gospel and God's love with them. 

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 27, 2015 at 10:27am

Yes, we are instructed to treat someone who is living in unconfessed and unrepented sin (showing no desire to change and no remorse or godly sorrow for it) even if they claim salvation, as if they are an unbeliever. John 8:1-11 shows us the Gospel and God's love. We are also instructed to be not unequally yoked with unbelievers, which means they shouldn't be among our closest friends or part of our inner circle or considered as "marrying material" but, of course, if two unbelievers marry and then one is spiritually born again, that one is told not to leave the unbelieving spouse, but if the unbelieving spouse leaves, the other one is freed from the relationship.

Thus, we no longer treat such a person as a brother, but as an unbeliever, with whom we share the Gospel and God's love. This is different, however, from a "Barnabus-Paul Separation" as takes place in Acts 15:36-39 over a disagreement. Maybe they eventually reconciled, maybe not, but sometimes even the saved choose to separate. I believe walking away from a friend is a must sometimes, and we can have good reason and need to walk away, whether temporarily or permanently. Walking away from someone and giving up the relationship doesn't mean one has given up on the person or doesn't care about them. It may just mean that your own 'stuff' is getting in the way, like Paul's was, and you need to create a distance, whether physically, psychologically, emotionally, or all three. Just my two cents.

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