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Judging salvation
I'm thinking that if a person claims salvation only in times of trouble and yet their entire life has been filled with things the Bible says to avoid, such as lust, witcraft and others, that such a person truly isn't saved and in fact mocks God. And if such a person denies such wrongdoing even while living in it, continue claiming to not live in it and rejecting any such possibility of being wrong...can they perhaps be saved and backslid? If you know they have acted in this manner their entire life, then can it even be a case of backsliding?
Is there any possibility someone like this is saved? How do you deal with such a person if you're unable to have nothing to do with them?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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When we judge, can we see the motives of a person's heart? If so, we can make a right judgment. If not, we might miss it. It is in this area that we have to be very careful.
Isa 29:20-21
20 The ruthless will vanish,
the mockers will disappear,
and all who have an eye for evil will be cut down —
21 those who with a word make a man out to be guilty,
who ensnare the defender in court
and with false testimony deprive the innocent of justice. NIV 84Who do we want to be our judge? It is our desire that the one who judges us know everything about us, even the areas where only God has access. To those who have trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, they trust in God to deliver them from the false accusations of the self-righteous. How many times have we been judged guilty by some? Have we been judged when a person didn't have all the information? Have we ever judged a person thinking we knew only to find out later, we didn't know it all.
Have we truly trusted in Christ? Can someone determine based on our actions whether or not we have? Can we judge by their fruit? Even then we must give plenty of time for the seed to grow.
Sometimes action has to be taken based on a person's conduct. I have had the sad job of sometimes having to suspend or even dismiss a child from school. At those times I did my best to make it clear to that person and parent that I may have been giving up on them due to my inabilities but that God would never give up on them. Dealing with kids, I could tell that the outward actions were not coming from the true motives of the heart. That was very rough. Action had to be taken in consideration of those remaining but knowing that God would care for the one being dismissed.
No one is perfect but most can adjust their actions to conveniently survive. Others, sometimes take a little more work. It is important that we are not judging those who take a little more work than others as devoid of the blessed gift of Christ.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Everyone needs a little more work. But if they're truly saved there will be SOME fruit or growth. According to scripture, there has to be. But if someone is telling others false things that go completely against scripture and are living a completely immoral lifestyle and saying there's nothing wrong in it, and have done this for many many MANY years...most of their life, if we didn't judge them a false teacher, aren't we letting our guard down for the devil who prowls around looking to devour those who won't stand against him because it's not Christian to oppose people but to love them regardless of whether or not they're evil?
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Roy, it looks like you're saying that you could see that the kids motives didn't match their actions. Do you mean you could see their true motives? Or are you just saying actions don't always match motives. I agree that we often judge too quickly or when we don't have enough information and we must never write anyone off as being hopelessly without God's mercy. A new christian is also a babe in Christ and has much to learn. We wouldn't judge them as we would those who ought to be on meat instead of milk. We see this in Scripture. There is much to consider in these things. Very true. Self examination is most important. We can know where we stand with God. It might not matter so much to learn where others stand. We have loved ones and friends that we'd like to be sure about.
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It has been said that there will be fewer people in heaven than we think. Others have said there will be many more in heaven than we think. I am of the mindset of the latter but who really knows. I am only so happy that I am not the one that determines these things. I remember the time as a young pastor of being asked by leadership to dismiss one of my members due to his smoking habits. Even then, I found myself wanting to be inclusive rather than exclusive. I must admit that I did not do so which may have been even a greater sin. I was considered a rebel of sorts. I admitted to them all that if smoking were my worse sin I would consider myself to having reached a certain goal in my life. I suggested to them that perhaps there were sin in their lives that would also be greater than smoking a cigarette.
What was in that young man's heart? He was certainly a sinner. Yet, he did want Jesus to save him from all his sins. All who call on Him will be saved. By the way, for you young folks, smoking back in the '60's was considered a sin worthy of being banned from church membership in holiness churches. How could I know that young man's heart? He confessed that he had asked Jesus to forgive his sin. He acknowledged that smoking was sinful but a habit he could not overcome at the time. I remember at the time thinking he was a better person than I. Can Jesus save the habitual sinner?
I think we need to be very careful when we begin to label persons who confess a faith in Jesus as one who is an unbelieving person. I am being reminded of the verse that tells me not to associate myself with those who call themselves believers but do not measure up. Now, the members of the church I attend must dramatically shrink.
As you can see, I have a past history with this sort of thing. I have always seen myself as not being very good and have found myself being willing to associate with those who some high church officials have deemed to not being worthy of church membership. Actually, just last week I questioned a high church official in this matter.
What is the measure we use to bar some from church membership? Perhaps I enjoy being around those that are not very good to make myself feel better about myself. Yet, I certainly do not want to be that one not clothed in righteousness at that wedding banquet. We all need to search our own motives for we all sin. When a persona confesses Jesus as Savior, let us be careful when deeming them not worthy of being a part of His church.
There are so many things we have to deal with: sex, drugs, pride, greed, lust, selfishness, covetousness, jealousies, factions, gluttony, etc., and perhaps the greatest sin of all - self-righteousness. I am grateful He came to grant us forgiveness from all our sins. I am very grateful He is our judge. I truly believe He will grant us entrance into His home based on our confessed faith in His Son Jesus. All are weak.
Obviously, I cannot make judgment on this person. I have never met him. I don't know the motives of his heart. If a person is truly an unbeliever, he will not make heaven his home. However, I don't see any believers ending up in hell.
On one hand I am told not to associate myself with sinners and on the other I am told to confess MY sins to others. How do I bring this into balance? I am pretty good at calling myself a sinner but not too good at the other. I also think of the splinter and the log comparison. He is not telling us to not make judgments in certain situations. I think we are being told that a proper judgment must be motivated by love for that individual.
I should never expel a child unless I am doing so in love.
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Roy you spoke of dismissing someone for smoking, but smoking is an up-in-the-air debate as the Bible doesn't specifically say not to smoke. Though it says much that certainly points that way. But smoking is a habit and habits need broken off.
However, if you know of someone willfully engaging in sexual sin and other blatant acts against scripture, and who professes the Bible is a translation and not the real Bible and teaches against what is in scripture, and they do all of this while continually proclaiming they are right, refusing to budge on this and they play church as it suits them but otherwise have nothing to do with it, and only profess to be a Christian...are we to not judge the tree by the fruit...or lack thereof?
My own church put a family out. They had disrupted several of our in home lifegroups where the leaders and members of the group had complained. The Pastor and elders met with them. While the Pastor never spoke of it, one of the lifegroup assistants mentioned that during the meeting, they had told them that because of this behavior, they could not be in lifegroups at least for now. Well they began to yell and curse at the Pastor and elders. Their behavior was so horrid that eventually the Pastor told them that they couldn't even come back to the church unless they repented. Instead they went on FB and bashed the church horribly. They have been put out of a few churches apparently.
I was in one of these groups at the church during one incident. The son was rapping on the table while we were trying to study the lesson and listen to our group leader. He became so disruptive that Nate asked him to please stop so he could concentrate on the lesson. Well this made him furious. He left the classroom. His mom went out and we heard him yelling. Stacy went out and asked him to calm down, but he got louder and yelled at Stacy "That boyfriend of yours told me to shut up!" I went out and spoke to his mom and we finally diffused the situation and they left. And this was I believe, their third group to do this to.
There is only so much the church can do. But ultimately we do need to fall back to what scripture tells us to do with divisive people and false prophets. These are those IN the church, who call themselves our brother, but they are acting so ungodly. We're not talking about, they wore a miniskirt, they drank last night, they smoke. But we're talking about, he's engaged in adultery and refuses advice, he's shooting up heroine and won't go to rehab and says there's nothing wrong with it, he comes to church drunk every day and causes a scene disrupting the service, he comes to church and leads other then leaves the church and engages in every lustful sin imaginable. And the main point of them all? They're unrepentant. They are those who see no wrong in their behavior, and have no conscience. Truly repentant believers will be convicted of their sins. Those who say they are without sin and there's nothing wrong with acts clearly against scripture, are those who may already have been turned over to a reprobate mind.
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Yes, it is true. Sometimes we are forced to put those out that are disruptive to the group. As I have already said, I am not disagreeing. I must admit that I have never had to deal with anything quite like that. I do know how it feels to be cursed at by a parent (and a student). It is not pleasant and I could have done a better job handling it. I had no choice but to dismiss the student. I do believe the student will be in heaven. However, it was not something I could handle. God can conquer the greatest of evil. That is the history of our world. Evil rises and God conquers. We do serve a great God.
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Roy,
What was in that young man's heart? He was certainly a sinner. Yet, he did want Jesus to save him from all his sins. All who call on Him will be saved. By the way, for you young folks, smoking back in the '60's was considered a sin worthy of being banned from church membership in holiness churches. How could I know that young man's heart? He confessed that he had asked Jesus to forgive his sin. He acknowledged that smoking was sinful but a habit he could not overcome at the time. I remember at the time thinking he was a better person than I. Can Jesus save the habitual sinner?
Amen.
Christians are called unbelievers by those who adhere to other religions, such as Islam. An insight occurred to me as I was reading through your response, after reaching this sentence I think we need to be very careful when we begin to label persons who confess a faith in Jesus as one who is an unbelieving person.The pharisees didn't believe in Jesus. They were rejecting Him. Yes, they we very religious, and that was against them, too, but they didn't recognize what was being fulfilled right in front of them -- the Messiah had come.
I have two older sisters who reject the deity of Christ but make a profession of faith in Him -- the same profession that JW's make in Him.
There's no way that I would want to dust my feet off against them or decide that they are beyond the mercy of God. I whole-heartedly agree that we can't judge the eternal destiny of someone because we don't know how the mercy of God might minister to them at the moment or in the future, but, in my POV, we can in many cases know their hearts.
There's another saying -- Hell is filled with good intentions or desires, or the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Not that it's true. I think motives do matter a great deal. I think one can have a good and right motive, but not be born again, and I think one can have a wrong motive even after experiencing the new birth. The sins of those who belong to Him are under the blood. What is motivating someone is the most important. In Ezekiel 36:26-27 we read: I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
The Spirit of God motivates those who are born again. They still battle the flesh. Romans 7:13-25. That battle between the Spirit and the flesh just isn't in some people, and it's very obvious, and that's a big red flag regarding the person's current heart condition. Just as the young man to whom you referred, someone saved can be guilty of sinning and when they see their sin, they will confess and repent and seek cleansing and feel remorseful that they've sinned against God and have hurt God. In Acts 8:20-24, the person whom Peter confronted said, pray for me, but he was worried about the consequences of perishing. Perhaps he did repent in the end, we don't know, and can't judge his eternal destiny.
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Yes, I should make myself clear. I believe faith in Jesus is he who believes He and the Father are One. Before Abraham was Jesus is. He is our eternal God and Savior. Believing that a person existed 2,000 years ago named Jesus that died on the cross doesn't save anyone from anything. Jesus told the Pharisees that if He cast out demons, then the Kingdom was right here in our midst. There He was, God, the King of kings and Lord of lords. He was right there in front of them He was telling them the Kingdom had come and He was the King. They sought to kill Him and eventually did. He told them they didn't even believe in Moses or they would believe in Him.
No man could ever do what Jesus did unless He authorized that power to them. It is His power, His authority. He is God and faith in Him is the only way to find the blessed Godhead. He said to seek and we would find. How can He be missed. Knock and it shall be opened. Ask and it will be given us. There is no excuse to the unbeliever. They will die in their sins.
To those who believe - they are granted eternal life. He is the way unto salvation. He is the absolute only way. There is no other way. The way is narrow. It is confined to only those who know Him as Lord.
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Again, amen.
Now, I'm going to be more careful in the future when dealing with self righteousness in others. It is a sin (one of which I still struggle with, too) but when Jesus pronounced woes against the scribes and Pharisees, it was for more reason than just them thinking that one has to do works in order to be saved or stay saved. They rejected Jesus altogether as the Savior and Lord. There are many people who receive Jesus but who still think they must work for salvation, to stay saved, or even to be saved, and they might even cringe at the message of imputed righteousness, but they aren't unbelieving in the same way as those Pharisees were.
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In Matthew 12, we learn that the unbelieving Pharisees were apostate to the point of committing the unforgivable sin. (Not all the Jewish leaders and Pharisees were unbelieving, John 12:42; Acts 15:5.) It looks like the reason Jesus was so harsh with the unbelieving ones is because they were apostate beyond repentance and God's wrath was upon them.
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
KJB http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-12/
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These are some very important verses. It is often applied to persons but the overall picture is directed at a tree. Jesus is speaking to individuals and to the nation of Israel. The Kingdom promised in the Old Testament is now upon us. And the King is standing there before them. The heart of the nation was bad, corrupt. The Kingdom was advancing but they were rejecting the King. God works all things for His purpose. This work is by the Holy Spirit. To say the King was Satan or from Satan was unpardonable. The reason? - they knew who He was and still rejected Him. They did not believe the very Scripture they used to maintain their power. The Kingdom age had arrived - the Kingdom of grace. Shall we cut this tree down? It has become corrupted. The King has come in majesty and power. Satan's throne has been overthrown. Anyone who calls on Jesus will be saved. Satan's power over them is broken. Satan cannot hold onto the Lord's people. He is cast out. Now is the day of salvation. Call on Him. Call on Him. He is the King and can break the power of sin in our lives. All authority and power has been given unto Him. Another age is breaking upon us but this is the day of grace. To know Him and to reject Him is unpardonable. We may not be perfect (and we are not) but He will heal us. He loves us and will get us home. Blessed be the name of our Lord, Savior and King.
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