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Judging salvation
I'm thinking that if a person claims salvation only in times of trouble and yet their entire life has been filled with things the Bible says to avoid, such as lust, witcraft and others, that such a person truly isn't saved and in fact mocks God. And if such a person denies such wrongdoing even while living in it, continue claiming to not live in it and rejecting any such possibility of being wrong...can they perhaps be saved and backslid? If you know they have acted in this manner their entire life, then can it even be a case of backsliding?
Is there any possibility someone like this is saved? How do you deal with such a person if you're unable to have nothing to do with them?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Good point, Seek.
I used to think so -- that we can't know someone's heart or motives -- but there are plenty of Scriptures, especially in the book of James, where motives of people are pointed out. e.g. James 4:1-17; Matthew 6:1-18; 1 John 3:12.
When Paul pointed out false teachers and even called some by name, he didn't just say they were teaching falsehoods, but that they were false themselves.
Often a person’s intention is too clear to miss. Like when the electric company disconnects your service. Their motives are clear. I do agree that we can misjudge, be too quick to judge and err as a result, or not be fully aware of how to judge righteously, but, if we are supposed to be able to spot false teachers and prophets, then we must be enabled to acquire spiritual discernment to know the hearts of people, whether they are true or false, good (a child of God) or evil (child of the devil).
As this says:
"... a false teacher can be known by his pride (Cain’s rejection of God’s plan), greed (Balaam’s prophesying for money), and rebellion (Korah’s promotion of himself over Moses). Jesus said to beware of such people and that we would know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20).
For further study, review those books of the Bible that were written specifically to combat false teaching within the church: Galatians, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. It is often difficult to spot a false teacher/false prophet. Satan masquerades as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), and his ministers masquerade as servants of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:15). Only by being thoroughly familiar with the truth will we be able to recognize a counterfeit.
http://www.gotquestions.org/false-teachers.html
PS This reminds me of a few discussions that were posted on AAG not too long ago about how to spot a false teacher. This is not to say that there is no hope for a false teacher/prophet/believer. As long as there is breath in the body, then there is hope for one to be saved.
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I refer back to Jesus's words in Luke 6:45, The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
There is a difference between intending and acting, but ultimately we do end up acting out our true intentions even when we aren't aware of what we are really wanting (intending). The heart reveals itself. See Matthew 15:19, also. Yes, even someone saved can be guilty of sinning in these ways as well, but as you said, they will confess and repent and seek cleansing and feel remorseful that they've sinned against God and have hurt God.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Seek,
We certainly can't avoid 'judging' as it plays a part in every decision and choice that we make it's part of being human, so every choice and decision we make is ultimately a judgement. We can make a judgement or choice/decision to purge the evil person from among us, but we are to do so in the Spirit of Love, which is this: 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
The part that really stands out here for me is this "Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth". We always hope they will be repentant and receive them when they are.
1 Cor 13:1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
One day we will judge (see Matt 19:28). That day is not here yet.
Matthew 3:12 says "New American Standard Bible
"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."It doesn't say that we will gather His wheat into the barn, but HE will gather His wheat into the barn, HE will thoroughly clear His threshing floor.
Acts 17
29“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
God has determined a day for judgment. Because of this, I don't think we need to be concerned with deciding who is saved or not. Focusing on such things is a distraction which can harbor bitterness and unfruitfulness. I don't think that's where God wants us.
A wolf in sheep's clothing is someone who plays a role contrary to their real character (Wikipedia). If that is him (and it sounds like it might be) than by all means purge him from among your presence. But do so in love with prayer always keeping in mind the biblical understanding of what love is as outlined in 1 Cor 13.
Blessings, Carla
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Carla,
It's nice seeing you participating in the forums again. Iron sharpens iron :)
We are never to condemn anyone as hopelessly beyond the reach of God's mercy, and I agree that it's very difficult to know whether someone who shows no signs of growth after making a profession of faith is truly redeemed or not, and, as you note, this is something we must, most definitely, bring to the Lord and leave with Him -- the final judgment is God's alone, and, since we aren't all knowing or all seeing, we might never know if someone's heart was changed, even in their dying hours, like the thief's on the cross -- but if we aren't sure in the daily dealings with someone at present, and if we discern a heart that doesn't seem really right with God, and although we are not required to prove that anyone is not a Christian, if they claim to be, aren't we required to continue seeking to help them move toward holiness? Growth follows birth, naturally, although maturity happens at different rates, and much of the NT contains teaching towards that end.
In Acts 8, Peter tells someone his heart isn't right with God:
20But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21“You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22“Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. 23“For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.” 24But Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”
I believe Jesus has laborers with Him in the harvest and we are asked to pray for more. Matthew 9:38 But, I also agree that "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." Matthew 13:41
I suppose a good question is, Can one be saved(born again) and still have a heart that isn't exactly right before God?
I think a person might sin but not know that they are sinning and doing wrong. Others know and see it though and actually are victims of it but God might not be dealing with the individual just yet regarding that sin.
We can be involved in a sinful behavior that we did not realize was sinful and claim to be a Christian at the time. Is one truly a saved Christian in such a circumstance? I believe a person can just not know that they are wrong and their conscience may not be moving them to deal with it as sin. But if we are truly in the sanctification process after receiving the new life, we will show at least some form of growth and change (however small) due to being challenged by the truth and will seek to break free from sinful behaviors. This, I believe, is an evidence that we are true believers. We should also be experiencing some success at breaking away from sinful behaviors.
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Hi Amanda,
I think this conversation may be changing direction a bit... towards assurance of salvation.
2 Cor 13:5 tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. I wonder if a person who wasn't in the faith would even care in the first place?
I wonder if any of us truly have a heart that is right before God except by faith in Jesus and what HE has done for us. The righteous live by faith. Hebrews 10:37,38 is a call to persevere, but as Galatians 3:11 tells us we persevere by faith and not by relying on the law because no one who relies on the law is justified before God. My friends husband (whom I mentioned in an earlier post) by all appearances relies on the law... but again I stress, I don't know his motives, only God does.
You asked "although we are not required to prove that anyone is not a Christian, if they claim to be, aren't we required to continue seeking to help them move toward holiness?"
I would answer with a resounding 'yes'... however, we must also discern/find out if they are interested in moving towards holiness. Jesus always asked 'Do you want to get well?' This generally applies to sickness, but I think it's applicable here also. I believe we can equate being 'right with God' to being 'well'. I guess the point is, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Thanks for the welcome... I miss this place and everyone here.
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The conversation is still addressing judging the counterfeit from the true believer, in my POV and my perception, as I read the comments and make comments.
I used to say we aren't to judge the heart but then I got to wondering why I believed that and I started learning more about the heart, and I think to say 'We are not to judge the heart…' is something Satan wants us to believe in order to get us to stop exposing the false and counterfeit -- it's like an emotional battering ram, more or less, and I've been seeking to distance myself from allowing my emotions to rule. (I'm not saying we are to judge the eternal destiny.)
I agree that our hearts are made right by God through belief and repentance and the work Christ did to regenerate and justify us, and it is through His imputed righteousness alone that is the only reason we will be saved. We can't judge the eternal destiny of someone, because we don't know how the mercy of God might minister to them at the moment or in the future, but, in my POV, we can discern whether they are currently counterfeit or true. We have no conflict with saying those outside of Christianity -- those who adhere to other religions such as Buddhism and Islam and so forth and reject Christ -- have hearts that aren't right before God. Yet, we do shrink back from believing or wanting to say that some of those who profess Christianity aren't true believers. I have thought about these things very deeply and often, and I actually think it would be best not to take it for granted that someone, no matter how long you've known them, has entered the 'Ark of safety' (as they used to say in the holiness church I attended in childhood) and best to err on the side of not wanting anyone to perish but urging all to draw nearer to God.
I pray the way opens for you to be here more often. Your wisdom and insight is missed.
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Amanda,
I'm certain it couldn't hurt any one of us to draw nearer to God... that behaviour is always in season. :-)
Blessings, and thank you for your kind words.
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Amen. And one of the ways of drawing near to God is through confession (agreeing with God about our sin) and seeking forgiveness. http://www.intouch.org/you/bible-studies/content.aspx?topic=Drawing...
I'm heading out to church at the moment, but later, I have some great news to share in my discussion I posted awhile back about assembling together. I'm referring to the discussion at this link http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/what-is-considered-as-an-ac...
Blessings to you, too!
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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A wolf in sheep's clothing is someone who plays a role contrary to their real character (Wikipedia). If that is him (and it sounds like it might be) than by all means purge him from among your presence.
This is the exact definition. Only problem is, you can't Purge everyone from your presence. This is why many women stay in abusive marriages: And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.
But even if there's no abuse but the spouse is just wicked to the core, knowing we're told to count it joy, doing it is a whole other matter.
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My friend struggles with her spouse and it breaks my heart because she tries in her own strength.
We need to know our identity in Him. We need to know He is faithful and will never leave or forsake us. We need to know that Romans 8:28 is true. We need to know that His faithfulness depends on who He is, not on who we are or what we have done.
I know personally that God intervenes and heals and restores relationships.
If the issue is abuse than the spouse who is being abused should seek out safety away from the dangerous environment and away from the abuser, and they should get help from the authorities immediately.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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1Co 4:1-21 NIV84 So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. (2) Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. (3) I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. (4) My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. (5) Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. (6) Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. (7) For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? (8) Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have become kings--and that without us! How I wish that you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you! (9) For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men. (10) We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! (11) To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. (12) We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; (13) when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world. (14) I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. (15) Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. (16) Therefore I urge you to imitate me. (17) For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church. (18) Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. (19) But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. (20) For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. (21) What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?
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