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Judging salvation
I'm thinking that if a person claims salvation only in times of trouble and yet their entire life has been filled with things the Bible says to avoid, such as lust, witcraft and others, that such a person truly isn't saved and in fact mocks God. And if such a person denies such wrongdoing even while living in it, continue claiming to not live in it and rejecting any such possibility of being wrong...can they perhaps be saved and backslid? If you know they have acted in this manner their entire life, then can it even be a case of backsliding?
Is there any possibility someone like this is saved? How do you deal with such a person if you're unable to have nothing to do with them?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Luke 6:45
New King James Version (NKJV)
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart[a] brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
No one can really hide an unchanged heart, while, at the same time, a changed heart will reveal itself as well.
But many times we judge too quickly. One may have a cold heart beneath sweet words or a warm heart beneath bitter, angry words. It's the intention (or, motive) that is important because over time it reveals the heart.
I'm sure you've known this person long enough for the heart to have been revealed.
Luke 6 from the ESV
A Tree and Its Fruit
43 “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit,
44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush.
45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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>>>I'm sure you've known this person long enough for the heart to have been revealed.
Definitely.
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Since there's no getting around having to deal with the person(s) then ask God to help you let go of what you think the relationship should be and to intervene and help you deal with what it is. His grace was sufficient for Paul's thorn. "So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most" Hebrews 4:16, NLT.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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This is neither here nor there but Saul wouldn't have had to worry about his throne had he continued following God.
As far as dealing with this person: Seeing as you must have a relationship with this person from what you've said, I'd just keep the relationship on the issues at hand. I wouldn't even bring salvation, Christ, God, or anything pertaining to your beliefs. Just do what you gotta do & move along as quickly as possible. If they bring it up, let them say whatever it is they're saying. Reply by OK & move along. Nothing excites a person more then an argument when it comes to their religion.
...the principle evidence of saving grace is holy practice (pp. 262-63). He said true salvation always produces an abiding change of nature in a true convert. Therefore, whenever holiness of life does not accompany a confession of conversion, it must be understood that this individual is not a Christian. (lain H. Murray, Jonathan Edwards: A New Biography [Carlisle, Pa.: The BANNER
of Truth Trust, 1987], 262-63).
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Well that's what I do, but then I wonder if we're supposed to force ourselves to be friendly especially if you know any attempt is going backfire on you. We're not called to shun people but if someone is a wolf, we're told to not associate with them. Just a delimma I'm trying to find the answer to.
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You're not called to be friendly. I'd say what I had to & leave it at that.
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Seek, sweet Sister,
I can see your concern here in how, what, and why.......dealing with these type of people.
One major factor considering Jesus blasting and attacking the Pharisees - The only times Jesus displayed holy anger against human beings was when He cleansed the temple on two occasions.. Keep in mind these were the religious leaders ,who were supposed to lead the people according to God's precepts.......but they were taking advantage of, robbing both God and the folks, and Jesus showed no patience with them.
I don't think this group you've described can be compared to the religious leaders of Jesus's day.........because I gather these are like regular church members. But they can't be ignored.
Seems to me an applicable verse here is I Corinthians 5:11, "What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people. (N.L.T.).
Remember Char, God knows what's going on here...........and He'll take care of business in His own way.
These people will be needing prayer.
Grace and Peace to you my Dear.
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Actually Richard, one isn't like a regular church member. They go without attending, expressing interest or claiming Christianity...UNTIL they need a cover or character reference. As soon as the use is gone, so are they.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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It is critically important that a root of bitterness does not enter into our own hearts. If God saves one that we don't believe is worthy, we can become like the laborers in the fields that received the same compensation for a full day's work as those who had only worked an hour. (Matt 20:1-16) They naturally thought they deserved more than the one that received the same promised wages yet only worked a short time. None of us deserve anything. It is all a gracious gift from God.
A summary of the parable: The owner of the vineyard had much to be accomplished and hired some laborers to work a twelve hour day. (We are pretty spoiled here in America.) He promised them a certain wage. Three hours later he hired more because there was still much to do. Six hours later or midway through the day, the hired more laborers. Nine hours later or three-fourths into the day, the hired more. Finally, when the day was almost finished he hired even more laborers to complete the task.
At the end of the day, the ones who had only labored a little were paid the same as those who had labored the full twelve hour day. Those who had put in an entire day grumbled against the Master as those who had done so very little had received the same compensation.
We are human and we humans demand fairness. I teach kids and I see this all time. I work in a Christian school and see some parents putting in more than others and yet all are receiving a Christian education for their children. In the church some work their hearts out to maintain the church while others do very little. Some have said that the 20% do 80% of the work. I think it is even a greater disproportionate figure than that. Seek, I think you are one that does much for the Kingdom. The harvest is great but the laborers are few. You are laboring to bring in that harvest. Yet, in the end, all receive the same gift of salvation. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord, even if it is in the final hour, will be granted the most glorious and unmerited fantastic gift of salvation.
How do we get to the place that we rejoice when God saves the most unworthy of these? It is His to give and He chooses to give it away freely to all who will receive. We do not labor for the gift, we labor for the Master. We labor because we love Him so very deeply. It is easy for me to become bitter when I find myself sacrificing for those who are doing little for their children's education. But then I see the children and my heart rejoices that I am helping to save one more child from the flames of hell. Even though we see some doing very little, we desperately want them to know Christ and His love. It is up to us to help carry them. We are of those laborers that see that so much has to be done and so few to do the work. In the end we will all receive more blessing than we could ever imagine or contain. We will rejoice with our Savior for every lost soul entering the Kingdom. We labor for that one that even we don't feel is worthy (as if any of us are worthy). We rejoice in them. We desperately want them to be saved.
Easier said then done. Seek, what hour of the day do you feel you came to work? I must admit that when I see some that have gone before, I see myself as one that has come in at the very last. We are all so unworthy of His love yet we all have it. We have it even when we aren't doing all that we should be doing.
By the way, this may not apply at all to the discussion.
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Let me give another interpretation of the parable: The twelve apostles (specifically Peter) were wondering about what they would receive for their labors. They were only humans as well. In this context, Jesus gives us this parable. The parable also applies to the Jews. An implication is here applied to the Gentiles receiving salvation. After all their hard work, Jesus comes offering the same wage to those who did not work. The rich man had just come asking what he should do to receive eternal life. Eternal life is certainly the topic.
For centuries and even millenniums, the Jews had labored to receive. Now, here is God promising eternal life to those who had not labored. Some became angry and even rejected Him (the Landowner). It didn't seem fair. God was offering the wage to those who had not labored. I think it is a beautiful picture of our (the Gentile's) salvation. The Jews should have been rejoicing but instead they became bitter. God's plan was coming into fruition but they rejected the plan.
God had spoken words of comfort to them centuries earlier in a prophecy from Isaiah:
Isa 40:1-2
Comfort, comfort my people,
says your God.
2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
and proclaim to her
that her hard service has been completed,
that her sin has been paid for,
that she has received from the Lord's hand
double for all her sins. NIVThe Jews had paid a great price for their iniquities and now the Gentiles are being offered complete forgiveness of their sins for no labor. Where is the fairness in that? Jesus spoke through Isaiah saying the hard labor was completed. It was the time to rejoice. Yet, they missed it. They became bitter. Their choice was to crucify the Landowner that was giving eternal life to those who simply believed on Him.
You and I are the benefactors of all that hard service. Jesus said the first shall be last and the last shall be first. Where is the fairness? Yet, here we are, saved from all our sins and what have we really done? The Kingdom has come and we are the recipients. What have we done to deserve this? Freely we have received, now freely give. Rejoice when there is even a hint of saving faith.
Eph 1:4-9
...In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. NIV"...which he has freely given us in the One he loves."
What have we done? Why do any of us feel deserving? Why have we been chosen? Who can understand the mystery of His will? All I can do is rejoice that I have come to know Him. I will share with every single one of these children how much God loves them. I don't care how they get into this school - even if their parents don't seem to be doing enough. We are given this glorious privilege of being able to share this wonderful news with the Gentiles and even with the Jews if they will listen. The work is completed. This is the day of His rest - His Sabbath.
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Roy,
Your replies here are very edifying.
The following paragraph of yours affirms what I recently read in one of my devotions. You said:
What have we done? Why do any of us feel deserving? Why have we been chosen? Who can understand the mystery of His will? All I can do is rejoice that I have come to know Him. I will share with every single one of these children how much God loves them. I don't care how they get into this school - even if their parents don't seem to be doing enough. We are given this glorious privilege of being able to share this wonderful news with the Gentiles and even with the Jews if they will listen. The work is completed. This is the day of His rest - His Sabbath.
My devotion said:
As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous - not even one." (NLT) (Romans 3:10)
Do you look around at others who may not be as faithful as you and get angry? Do you wonder how they could behave the way they do and hope God punishes them for what they deserve? After all, you've always gone to church. Unfortunately, that kind of thinking has a self-righteous tone when we compare ourselves to others. Don't get sucked into thinking that way because it will hold you captive to anger.
There's no doubt in my mind about it -- noone could ever earn salvation, and it's plain that the word from Scripture which you've used is saying God will receive His lost sheep at no matter what age or stage in this life that they answer His call to come home, even in the last hours of life, or, as we said when I worked for hospice -- the eleventh hour, when it's almost too late.
"And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’" (Matthew 20:6, ESV.)
At the same time, although I agree very heartily with what you've said, I think it is possible for us to be able to judge the counterfeit from the true. Wisdom and discernment from God are needed to do so, and even when we do discern someone who hasn't received the new heart and doesn't have the indwelling Spirit, we don't have to shun them or turn away from them completely.
I think we can mature enough spiritually to where we will recognize when the Lord is important to someone, or when He isn't. (I'm referring to someone whom we deal with face to face and have intimately known, and not people on the internet or social media or whom we have just talked with momentarily, face to face, etcetera.)
The Lord says, “These people come to honor me with words, but I am not really important to them. The worship they give me is nothing but human rules they have memorized. (Isaiah 29 : 13 ERV)
Jesus said, “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Matthew 15:8, ESV).
Christians can and should be kind with non Christians. Many of the unsaved need a glimpse of what having a relationship with Jesus really is. (John 13:35 -- although it is often debated what that love is)
It's difficult to be kind and gentle and patient and so forth with others. These things are fruit of the Spirit. I think that, to have people in your life with whom you must have relations with regularly but who are non-Christians is very challenging. Therefore, we aren't to voluntarily have non-Christians as our closest friends or part of our inner circle.
In some cases, we are unequally yoked and must have dealings with the person. At such times we can trust in Romans 8:28.
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