Judging salvation

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on December 28, 2014 at 5:21pm

"Can the rush grow up without mire?"
Job 8:11

The rush is spongy and hollow, and even so is a hypocrite; there is no substance or stability in him. It is shaken to and fro in every wind just as formalists yield to every influence; for this reason the rush is not broken by the tempest, neither are hypocrites troubled with persecution. I would not willingly be a deceiver or be deceived; perhaps the text for this day may help me to try myself whether I be a hypocrite or no. The rush by nature lives in water, and owes its very existence to the mire and moisture wherein it has taken root; let the mire become dry, and the rush withers very quickly. Its greenness is absolutely dependent upon circumstances, a present abundance of water makes it flourish, and a drought destroys it at once. Is this my case? Do I only serve God when I am in good company, or when religion is profitable and respectable? Do I love the Lord only when temporal comforts are received from his hands? If so I am a base hypocrite, and like the withering rush, I shall perish when death deprives me of outward joys. But can I honestly assert that when bodily comforts have been few, and my surroundings have been rather adverse to grace than at all helpful to it, I have still held fast my integrity? Then have I hope that there is genuine vital godliness in me. The rush cannot grow without mire, but plants of the Lord's right hand planting can and do flourish even in the year of drought. A godly man often grows best when his worldly circumstances decay. He who follows Christ for his bag is a Judas; they who follow for loaves and fishes are children of the devil; but they who attend him out of love to himself are his own beloved ones. Lord, let me find my life in thee, and not in the mire of this world's favour or gain.--Charles Spurgeon

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Permalink Reply by Seek on December 28, 2014 at 8:27pm

OK. I didn't really get that. I mean, in all the rush, I think I missed the moral. LOL

My delimma here is...I don't believe they love the Lord at all but use religion when it benefits them...for appearances. They never speak of God or church otherwise nor bother even explaining what things they engage in that are deemed evil. They in fact see nothing wrong with such behavior yet will pretend they stopped such behavior when in front of those they are trying to put on a show for.

Maybe I'm wrong but to me, that just sounds evil. And sometimes we have to deal with evil. The Bible says to have nothing to do with such people but that's not always possible. I also see Proverbs 9:8 to be true in this cause its a very accurate description: Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on January 4, 2015 at 7:23pm

OK. You didn't get that one. What about this one?

"Knowest thou not that it will be bitterness in the latter end?"
2 Samuel 2:26

If, O my reader! thou art merely a professor, and not a possessor of the faith that is in Christ Jesus, the following lines are a true ketch of thine end.

You are a respectable attendant at a place of worship; you go because others go, not because your heart is right with God. This is your beginning. I will suppose that for the next twenty or thirty years you will be spared to go on as you do now, professing religion by an outward attendance upon the means of grace, but having no heart in the matter. Tread softly, for I must show you the deathbed of such a one as yourself. Let us gaze upon him gently. A clammy sweat is on his brow, and he wakes up crying, "O God, it is hard to die. Did you send for my minister?" "Yes, he is coming." The minister comes. "Sir, I fear that I am dying!" "Have you any hope?" "I cannot say that I have. I fear to stand before my God; oh! pray for me." The prayer is offered for him with sincere earnestness, and the way of salvation is for the ten-thousandth time put before him, but before he has grasped the rope, I see him sink. I may put my finger upon those cold eyelids, for they will never see anything here again. But where is the man, and where are the man's true eyes? It is written, "In hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment." Ah! why did he not lift up his eyes before? Because he was so accustomed to hear the gospel that his soul slept under it. Alas! if you should lift up your eyes there, how bitter will be your wailings. Let the Saviour's own words reveal the woe: "Father Abraham, send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame." There is a frightful meaning in those words. May you never have to spell it out by the red light of Jehovah's wrath! -- Charles Spurgeon

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 4, 2015 at 8:40pm

Umm OK. But...no. LOL

It sounds kinda poetic sorta but what I'm trying to find out is how to actually deal with this type of person. I mean, I'm pretty certain their claim to religion is only an act.

To be honest, I have dealings with at least two such individuals. Only I do believe one to be saved as he seems truly to feel remorse over his actions. But he also feels such guilt it keeps pulling him back to believing God has turned His back on him. So he goes back and forth...attending church regular, talking to others about his faith, reading scripture, helping at the church, happy and upbeat...to leaving church in despair, guilt and depression and returning to old sins.

But another doesn't display any guilt or remorse. They actually believe they are correct in about every religious matter. They attend church only when it benefits their situation but continue living the same as always outside the church. And they never speak to anyone of the Gospel outside the church.

And if you have to deal with this type, trying to keep a godly attitude doesn't change the situation because they still believe they're right in all they do. So how DO you deal with them?

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 5, 2015 at 12:10am

Seek, it might be that what they have is just religion, but lack the relationship with God. Christianity is more than just a religion. Christ must be ours; we must be His. We must be in relationship with God -- growing in love with God as well as growing to know God more and more.

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on January 5, 2015 at 11:37am

It says they play church but going to HELL. For crying out loud

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 5, 2015 at 5:12pm

LOL I get that much. But what's our response having to deal with them? I look at how Jesus didn't pull punches with the Pharisees...you white washed tombs. While God loves us all, He also knows those who won't accept Him and I quite frankly, and very strongly, believe this is one of them. But just like the Pharisees, if you told them this, they'd swear nothing was wrong with them but that you were the one with the problem, and also like the Pharisees, would persecute you and those you love if you did. Knowing they show no interest in your religion and no remorse, do you say anything to them of their behavior or let it go and just hold on through the pain of dealing with them?

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Permalink Reply by Helen Williamson on January 11, 2015 at 5:02am

Hi Seek,

I believe you want to know what are you supposed to do or how are you to relate to such a person. This kind of individual can be very distracting to the church. They appear to know a lot but their input tends to just disrupt what God is wanting to do. This can be very frustrating. The early church did not put up with such nonsense. Our churches today tend to think if we offend anyone we are wrong.

2 Tim3:1-5 Tells what is to be done in such a case as the latter person you described. Paul says this kind of person has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY. 

 2 Thes. 3:6-15 Tells us how to handle one who is disorderly. "Now we command you, brethren in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every BROTHER that walks disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.....And if any man obey not our word have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother..." (sounds like shunning, haha)

Every situation has to be prayed about to find the mind of Christ. We cannot always take the scriptures as a pat answer on how to handle our unique situation without knowing what God wants us to do.

1 Thes. 5:14-15 instructs us to ... warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

We have to be sure that we are not reacting out of our frustration. Notice that we are to be patient toward all men.

And of course you cannot do this on your own. The leadership of the church would have to be the ones who initiate this method of dealing with the unruly.

Pray without ceasing and talk with the leaders to let them know your concerns. Church is not done today as it was then sad to say. If it was I think we would probably have a lot stronger church with more manifestation of the power of God.   

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 11, 2015 at 6:11am

Yes, trying to figure out how to relate to them when dealing with them where turning away is not an option. But they're not in my church so can't go to the elders. Just trying to deal with them individually is difficult because I just feel this underlying uneasiness of being around someone who mocks God. "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap." But if you must be around such people, and you know there is this underlying...the only word I can truly apply is evil, do you pretend friendly or realize you're in the presence of evil and only deal with it to the point you must. I like Tammy's final suggestion, but is it scriptural?

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Permalink Reply by Helen Williamson on January 19, 2015 at 5:53am

It is not pleasant to be around people who mock God but God is able to defend himself and he has evidently been patient with this individual.

Psalm 37:7-11 gives good advice concerning evil doers. It says, "Rest in the Lord and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospers in his way, because of the man who brings wicked devices to pass. Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."

Sometimes the wicked are allowed to continue in our lives because they are used by God as a refining tool to bring to our attention things such as our own attitudes, anger, resentments and etc. that need to be dealt with. I have been in such situations and no matter what I did the problem did not change. I humbled myself to the individual again and again only to have her falsely accuse me and rail at me. But when God decided that the work in my life that needed to be accomplished was finished he opened a door and moved me on to greater things. This trial lasted for two years. There was not a day that I did not consider that this individual might inflict bodily harm upon me. But God protected me. He helped me to keep my attitude right most of the time. LOL.

Rest in the Lord, if he has not opened the door he has a purpose for allowing this to continue.

God bless you Seek. Praying for you to find peace in the midst of your trial. God is able.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 5, 2015 at 7:12am

Seek,

I would offer two men from Scripture as illustrations. We now know where they were in their lives but it is doubtful than any of us could have known from their actions. Samson was a man that might have lived a life similar to the person described by you in this article. Yet, in the end,he turned to God and  I believe he was saved. King Saul, on the other hand, might have fooled us into believing he did seek after God. Yet, int the end he turned to the witch of Endor for advice. I am not certain that he did find God at the conclusion of his life. These are a couple of cases that would have been very difficult for us to ascertain the certainty of their salvation. 

Samson cried out to God in the end. He was a believer even though his life did not reveal greatly his faith. The lust of his flesh overcame his sensibility. I am sure that he was very sorry for his sin. King Saul did seem to have periods of repentance but in the end, he didn't appear to have faith.

Perhaps both of these men will be in heaven. Only God knows who truly believes. I might not ask Samson to lead my home Bible study but would be quick to call on him in a crisis need for a man with supernatural strength. Many struggle with lust. This does not necessarily mean they are lost. 

Hell is a very terrible place and we do not want our worse enemies to end up there. This probably did not help but just a couple of observations based on the Spurgeon article given by Tammy. I pray this person and that none of us end up like the person in the parable who cried desperately for relief from the torment being suffered in the flames. 

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 5, 2015 at 5:25pm

I don't see this person fitting the bill of either of those. I wouldn't want to see them in hell either for a couple of reasons. But I believe Saul did follow God but ended up letting the thought of losing his thrown dominate and evil set in. And Solomon was led away by his own desires before realizing the consequences. This individual reminds me more of Herod.

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