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Forgiveness (What is it really?)
I've read so many thoughts on forgiveness. Many people quote Matthew 5:23-24 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Some say this means you need to go and personally forgive someone who has wronged you. Some say by using the word "brother", this is speaking of Christians and not those who are unsaved.
I read this verse where someone added in parenthesis: that thy brother hath ought against thee (or vice versa)...Really? Is that what this says?
Now forgiveness is vital cause if we don't forgive, God won't forgive us. I've often said I believe when Jesus said we're to forgive 70 x 7, that it wasn't just meaning we forgive every time. There is scripture that says we're to do just that - Luke 17:3-4 “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
But then we forgive and forgive and yet the hurt keeps cropping up and we ask ourselves...HAVE I forgiven, really forgiven? Corrie Ten Boom, who probably had more to forgive than any of us here might ever face, wrote:
I recall the time, some 15 years ago, when some Christian friends whom I loved and trusted did something which hurt me. You would have thought that, having forgiven the Nazi guard, this would have been child's play. It wasn't. For weeks I seethed inside. But at last I asked God again to work His miracle in me. And again it happened: First the cold-blooded decision to obey, then the flood of joy and peace. I had forgiven my friends; I was restored to my Father.
Then why was I suddenly awake in the middle of the night, hashing over the whole affair again? My friends! I thought. People I loved! If it had been strangers, I wouldn't have minded so.
I sat up and switched on the light. "Father, I thought it was all forgiven! Please help me to do it!"
But the next night I woke up again. The negative thoughts returned. They'd talked so sweetly too! Never a hint of what they were planning. "Father!" I cried in alarm. "Help me!"
His help came in the form of a kindly pastor to whom I confessed my failure after two sleepless weeks. "Up in that church tower, " he said, nodding out the window, "is a bell which is rung by pulling on a rope. But you know what? After the sexton lets go of the rope, the bell keeps on swinging. First ding then dong. Slower and slower until there's a final dong and it stops.
"I believe the same thing is true of forgiveness. When we forgive someone, we take our hand off the rope. But if we've been tugging at our grievances for a long time, we mustn't be surprised if the old angry thoughts keep coming for a while. They're just the ding-dongs of the old bell slowing down."
And so it proved to be. There were a few more midnight reverberations, a couple of dings when the subject came up in my conversation. But the force--which was my willingness in the matter--had gone out of them. They came less and less often and at last stopped altogether.
But going back to Matthew 5:23-24, I believe this to mean exactly what it states: If you remember your brother has something against you, to go and be reconciled. And this because one book later, Mark 11:25 teaches us: And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in Heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
If we have something against someone we're to forgive, we're not told to go and be reconciled...they may not want reconciliation. They may not even believer there's anything to reconcile.
Scripture tells us to be wise and discerning. How many have tried to follow well meaning advice to go and tell someone who hurt them that they forgive them, just to have that person be offended in believing they had nothing to be forgiven for? If we're to try to keep peace with everyone, how would this be peaceful? Isn't that stirring up strife? It seems to me it would be pushing the hurt in the person's face. I mean....I just wanted you to know that you hurt me really bad, but I forgive you!???
When WE hurt others, I believe this is where Matthew is teaching us to let them know we're sorry. It's then their place to accept the apology or not.
But isn't a silent forgiveness of the person or the hurt to God often the better course of action when you are dealing with someone who has hurt you? Especially if it is purposeful, continuing, or there is a refusal to acknowledge they've done wrong?
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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but is does mean that we are not wanting God to judge them
I've tried to figure that one out when reading the Psalms...
Psalms 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions...
Psalms 7:6 Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded...
Psalms 28:4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.
Psalms 35:4-6 Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt. Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them . Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them .
Psalms 35:8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall.
Psalms 54:5 He shall reward evil unto mine enemies: cut them off in thy truth.
Psalms 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Psalms 56:7 Shall they escape thine iniquity? In thine anger cast down the people O God.
Psalms 58:6-8 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
Psalms 59:13 Consume them in wrath , consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth.
Psalms 69:22-24 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. Let their eyes be darkened , that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous .
Psalms 109: 6-15 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few; and let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places. Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour. Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
Psalms 140:9-10 As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them. Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.
Most young children will have their issue and minutes after they are playing with no visible animosity, anger or retribution.
I'm not sure that's true. It may appear so on the surface. But how often are childhood hurts carried into adulthood unknowingly? How many become promiscuous, have identity crises, turn to drugs or alcohol, claw their way up the corporate ladder because of childhood hurts? One is raped and becomes a whore, one is made fun of and bullied and has an identity crisis, one is abused and dulls the memories with drugs or alcohol, one determines to own nice things because they knew nothing but poverty or were told they're stupid and want to prove they're not by their financial success.
If we're talking about the kid who just took your crayon, that is easily dismissed...typically even by adults. But let's say they take it and your parents tell you get another one. Then they take it and your parents say go find something else to play with. So they take that and your parents say if you can't play without tattle tales then you need to sit and be quiet. After a certain point, this child learns they are not loved or wanted. And they carry that into adulthood. I think this is why we're to train up a child and not provoke them to wrath.
And again on Corinthians 5:5 above...
They still need wisdom to know when one is living wrongly and when to put them out. Don't we also need wisdom for when are to put one out of our lives rather than continually forgiving something the repent of but keep doing to you?
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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70 x's 7. I believe we forgive everyone...everytime...for everything...I have been forgiven much, lots, huge, how can I withdraw my forgiveness to someone else because I feel that they haven't warranted it, when I myself have committed such of the same acts. I look at Jesus and think....WOW, He who hung from a cross with nothing but spite and spit and He forgave them..He who forgives us now...He forgives us, why are we making so many questions and configurations about forgiveness now? We have got to take our self out of the forgiveness...he/she hurt me, made me mad, was not right to me....it's all about me....let's begin thinking about what Christ suffered and how He forgave everyone of us, all of us are unworthy of receiving what He has offered to us, but yet we still question those we should forgive or not....I'm more than a little surprised. I suppose I don't like the idea of deciding who deserves forgiveness and who doesn't, forgive them who don't even request it.
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Huh?
Who said anything about not forgiving or withdrawing forgiveness?
I was asking about whether to truly forgive meant you needed to go and tell the offender even knowing it could stir up more dissension.
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Let me make it a bit clearer. Say someone hated your guts for some reason and did something mean to you to hurt you. You forgive them before God but decide to also forgive the person face to face even though this person still hates you. When you go to tell them you forgive them, they spit in your face. When you tell them you forgive them for spitting in your face, they punch you. When you tell them you forgive them for punching you, you end up weeks in traction.
Was forgiving face to face the wiser choice or was forgiving in front of God wiser?
This is an extreme but it should point out the question quite well.
The story I posted of Jay Meck...say this was your child and you forgave. Does that mean you'd never have moments where anger of the senseless loss of your child rose up? You would never ever have a bad thought towards those who killed your child? Take it a different route and say rather than an accident it was malicious. Say the driver was callous and didn't care. Was a repeat drunk driving offender. Would you ever get a bad thought after having forgiven?
That's why I started searching. It's not about questions and configurations but about why the old hurts come up and you keep forgiving but as you're unable to forget, they keep haunting you at times. In searching for the answer to that, some articles suggested you actually have to go and personally forgive them to their face. Well for one, if that's what it took then you would never get over it if that person had passed away, since you can never personally forgive them.
Corrie Ten Booms story made the most sense to me. This couple who did something wrong towards her and refused to acknowledge it, she did not personally forgive them. But she did be friendly towards them, even having them in her home. If she personally forgave them, being as they didn't acknowledge any wrongdoing, would they have ever entered her home or would they have then held a grudge toward her?
In this, she forgave but the thoughts of the hurt cane up again and again for a while but eventually diminished.
So as I said, none of this was about not forgiving.
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Would like to also add that I've had many in my life I needed to forgive. And I'm not talking about for taking crayons. Some are...
A. The uncle that repeatedly molested me and ultimately tried to rape me at 18. Being he lives many states away and was not allowed to leave that state due to a 20 year probation for other rapes, all I could do was email. When I wrote I forgive, he wrote back apologizing. He was now saved and turning his life around. Yet after that I still would not even answer my mother's phone if she was busy and he called as the thought would give me a very eerie feeling. I would carry the phone to her. When I did one day answer it was very strange but not bitter.
B. My step dad who repeatedly made advances toward me from age 10 to 13, when he was saved. I forgave him in my heart but he has passed on. He was also a very good dad after that and I love him and miss him.
C. Someone who hurt me terribly through lies, deceit, and theft carries their guilt as hatred. I've forgiven them repeatedly even to the point I've sat on the same pew after they returned to church. But they still seethe with anger towards me, and there are other unrelated issues with personally trying to reconcile that would bring up an entirely new conversation. Yet I will still have mixed thoughts about it. Sometimes I may need something I can't afford and remember I had one but this person now has it because they refused to return it. I will read scripture on lending without expecting return but this wasn't a case of lending so it haunts at me at times.
A & B don't really have an effect on me now. However C is quite fresh and still comes to mind, whereupon I again forgive and ask God to either remove the memory or help me get it so far into my heart it never again bothers me.
There are plenty more of some severity but this may give you an idea before you jump to concluding this was about not wanting to forgive.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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I'm not sure that's true. It may appear so on the surface. But how often are childhood hurts carried into adulthood unknowingly? How many become promiscuous, have identity crises, turn to drugs or alcohol, claw their way up the corporate ladder because of childhood hurts? One is raped and becomes a whore, one is made fun of and bullied and has an identity crisis, one is abused and dulls the memories with drugs or alcohol, one determines to own nice things because they knew nothing but poverty or were told they're stupid and want to prove they're not by their financial success.
Seek, We can take anything and exploded by 100 to the 1000th power :-( Please read what I said again on this. I will venture on here though in case you don’t :-) We are talking two 3 year old kids in a sand box. I seriously doubt that these two kids will do anything to each other that will scar them for life without some other external influence added to the equation. It is only as we age and other external influences are applies that people begin to forget how to forgive. While it is true that the children are selfish (mine, mine, mine) at that age if left alone without external influences will get over it and be playing together again as if nothing ever happened. Now, we can pick and choose the rare unusual situation that exists outside the norm, but even there it is rare and unusual for a reason.
If we're talking about the kid who just took your crayon, that is easily dismissed...typically even by adults.I disagree. To the 3 year old the crayon is a desired treasure while to most (I repeat most) adults they are not. In order to compare the activity of the child to that of the adult we would have to find items to insert to each equation that has equal value to the parties involved.
But let's say they take it and your parents tell you get another one. Then they take it and your parents say go find something else to play with.
You just introduced parental influence and changed the simple child on child equation. Shame on the parents, for there are times parents intervene when the kids left alone would figure it out and move on. The parents in your equation will go home and complain about the other parent’s parenting skills and their children. They will debate whether they ought to ever let the kids play together again. The kids left alone will be playing again and will learn conflict resolution at their level and important life lessons, but no … everyone wants to always step in and fix it. I know a lot of people will have a heart attack over my next statement, but as kids it is healthy to occasionally get into a school yard scrap (fight). It happens, steam is let off and so often (been there) afterwards the two become very good friends (not always, but often).
So they take that and your parents say if you can't play without tattle tales then you need to sit and be quiet.
Why do they tattle? Have they at this point learned that either through personal experience or observation that when one tattles the adults intervene and someone gets their way? This is a learned response and is after the scenario I present where two innocent (whatever that is) children have a tiff and quickly get over it and continue to play having a great time. Neither is scarred by the experience, but actually grow … that is until other influences are added to the equation that stoke the selfish nature.
After a certain point, this child learns they are not loved or wanted. And they carry that into adulthood. I think this is why we're to train up a child and not provoke them to wrath.
Way off the deep end here. We went from sand box tussle to not being loved or wanted … I am sure that in your end result that there would have to be way more junk take place in the person’s life to go from sand box to I am not loved or wanted.
And again on Corinthians 5:5 above...
They still need wisdom to know when one is living wrongly and when to put them out. Don't we also need wisdom for when are to put one out of our lives rather than continually forgiving something the repent of but keep doing to you?Do we need wisdom regarding Matthew 5 and 18 … yes. In fact these two sections of Scripture are good examples as to why the individual needs to be involved with a larger body and held accountable by that larger body of God’s children. In both cases they are actions of the church, not the individual. With that said there are times we will separate from those who have hurt us … but, forgiveness is never an option, it is a command. Remember forgiveness does not mean restoration of trust or relationship. Those two require time.
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Ok I didn't realize you were referring to a 3 yo kids in a sandbox scenario. When you said forgive as children I just thought some children get so scarred that even forgiveness doesn't erase wounds. God can heal the wounds but usually does so over time.
They will debate whether they ought to ever let the kids play together again.
Please don't go there cause after last night's Bible study I'm at this very point. My son loves playing with Christopher who is 6 and half his size. He can't relate to kids his own age as he has Aspergers Syndrome. And through not focusing he often "accidentally" hurts Christopher, as well as other kids and sometimes adults. He did so again last night and Christophers dad was understandably angry over it but this same dad works with my son in Sunday School. Now I'm leery of him being back there during church. But keeping him up front with me only disrupts service.
Last night I had my son sit with me and not go back to Christophers room again. Eventually Christopher came and sat next to him showing him a video game and thy kept talking about it. I would shush my son each time. But Christophers dad told them to both go play in the other room. That's what got my son jumped onto to start with. :-(
I'd like to add to that some kids avoid my son because of these things and it's heart breaking.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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There are so many teachings about forgiveness, like almost everything else in the Word of God.
In the past, I was taught that the purpose of forgiveness is to restore the relationship.
One of my siblings told me once that I hadn't truly forgiven because true forgiveness isn't saying, "I forgive you but I can't have a relationship with you."
In Matthew 18, the brother approaches and repents and asks, and the one forgiving keeps forgiving as often as asked which signifies that the relationship continues and this seems to be the way God forgives us. We sin and repent and confess. He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse and the relationship is restored as often as needed and continues.
Don't we all risk being hurt, even with those whom we trust?
Are there different forms of forgiveness, or different phases that we advance through with the goal to reach full forgiveness?
I don't know and I've asked these things before.
Joseph experienced full restoration with his brothers.
Is anything less than that still forgiveness?
We do have 2 Cor 2:7, referring to believere.
Yet, when there is no reaffirming of the relationship, Jesus dying on the cross, saying Father, forgive them, is an example of forgiving in your heart before God even if the offender never knows or asks or has sorrow.
When trust is not there, the relationship cannot grow and the offended one feels cautious because the offender has not changed.
This does not feel good to me. Does that mean I didn't really forgive? Is that limited forgiveness?
Can we extend a limited forgiveness?
Should our goal be to pursue the offender, as God pursues us, to reconcile -- the ministry of reconciliation? Should we wait for the offender to come to us? Should we forgive from our heart before God and then go to the offender and pursue a relationship with them and keep forgiving, time after time, until they are reliable?
If I'm restored with God by releasing my offender before God without another soul even knowing, then maybe that is all that God requires.
In the case of a rape or another crime committed against someone by a stranger who is never caught or never again seen, then there is no relationship that needs reconciliation. Then the point of forgiveness is to release the offender before God and find your own release. That is completely understandable.
As for trust, you can't even trust those who have never hurt you
unless they earn it. People are fallen. Trust gets shattered and has to be rebuilt. We are fallen creatures in a fallen world.
In reading 2 Cor 2, I do wonder how forgiveness and reaffirming love and restoring fellowship all fit together. -
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And had they ever repented and apologized for their behavior or still justify it and just wanted to dig the hurt deeper by judging you?
The one who keeps forgiving the brother is doing good but like those who are sinning in church, we put them out lest they harm the body, one who repeatedly sins against us at some point also needs put out of our lives lest they destroy our trust. If repentance towards Christ must be sincere to be true repentance, should we believe from Matthew that the repentance of the brother doesn't need to be sincere? Christ never called us to be more than He is because it is impossible. Yet He Himself only forgives true and sincere repentance.
Joseph experienced restoration because his brothers knew they'd done wrong and realized their sin and because Joseph had many years to prepare for that moment.
All through scripture were told to forgive and told...as Christ forgave you. So let's examine that. Who does Christ forgive? The sinner or repentant? Does He ask we do more than He did? We don't let the sun go down on our anger because it will totally mess up our good night's sleep. But it doesn't mean we run out and personally forgive the one who has no repentance. We can love them as God loved us while we were yet sinners. But He didn't personally promise us His forgiveness unless we repented. -
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The Scripture of Matthew 5:23-24 was mentioned during our house church communion service, too. It is commonly taught that if someone has offended us we must forgive and not hold any bitterness and, therefore, we are to take a time of silent prayer to confess and be assured of forgiveness as well as forgive others before God and then receive communion. If we have hurt someone, then we are to seek to make it right with the person. Yet, that doesn't always mean becoming fully reconciled. I feel pressure from a few in my personal life who say and think differently. While I have let go of wanting revenge and have forgiven before God, as Jesus did on the cross, it's still difficult for me to trust and interact with most people, and especially with those who have hurt me a lot.
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