Victoria Osteen & the response

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 25, 2014 at 2:59pm

Seek,

No ... sorry, but false means not true. What he understood and taught was true, just not complete. When we look at the unfolding of God's Word we find that at various stages He revealed more truth, but that new revelation did not invalidate the previous or cause it to become false.

Act 18:24-26 NIV84  Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures.  (25)  He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John.  (26)  He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

His message was fine tuned based on the Greek word translated as "adequately."

Permalink Reply by thewatchman on September 25, 2014 at 6:04pm

Seek,

In speaking to your response to Tammy's.  This isn't just a matter of personal sin or personal conduct.  This was very public, I think that most of us have watched the video of what she spoke publicly, not to just her congregation, but to millions of viewers who were watching too.  This undermines the Gospel Truth and we are not the only one's, i.e. here at AAG who are very disturbed by her words & not just those words specifically, but their prosperity preaching in general.  How did we get to this place?  This is one of the largest churches in America...doesn't that tell you something about how dark it is truly getting?  

Paul addressed Peter publicly...  The Bible calls us to search the Scriptures to see if what we are being told is true.  This is about Jesus & the Truth of the Gospel.  

By remaining silent we are acquiescing to what she said to be true .  

 

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 25, 2014 at 7:38pm

Watchman if you were to think about what often causes arguments, could you agree it's many times misunderstandings? How many here have been misunderstood? So unless you were to as her personally could you swear that you know exactly what she meant?

If you think I'm saying this because I'm impartial...

I've never heard or seen Victoria Osteen. I have heard and seen Joel. And personally...maybe that huge grin full of teeth i dunno, but the guy creeps me out. And i don't care much for the little I've heard from him either. But i don't know all his teachings nor have ability to ask him to expound on his beliefs so I don't feel qualified to discuss his teachings.

Permalink Reply by Tammy on September 25, 2014 at 7:48pm

Because Apollos wasn't teaching anything falsely. He just didn't have the completed work of grace. The information that Apollos had wasn't false, although it was incomplete. Apollos knew and preached accurately about the coming of Jesus, but knew of it only from the message of Jesus’ forerunner, John the Baptist. Priscilla and Aquila heard Apollos speak in Ephesus and realized that he had not heard what had happened to Jesus. They took him aside privately and explained the way of God to him more accurately. 

Permalink Reply by Amanda on September 25, 2014 at 8:02pm

>>"No ... sorry, but false means not true. What he understood and taught was true, just not complete">>

In a previous post in this discussion, I mentioned that many of us read Scripture and only understand it partly but the real truth is always there and yet we don't always see all of it. So if we can't see it all, then we only have it partially right. It means we are still wrong to a certain point. So we walk in the light we have. 

I think that's what all of us are doing. We are like Apollos in many ways, with an incomplete understanding, and because none of us have complete understanding of all the truth, we are growing in knowledge and wisdom. 

I think what hurts the most is when, due to one needing more information, someone instead sees it as one being the other way -- as being not true. I admit I've hurt others in this way, but have been hurt, too. One way I've been hurt in this way is regarding things that are preferences but when I haven't agreed with someone in their belief regarding their preferences, I've been rebuked, but actually the person was just lacking information regarding the differences between a preference and a doctrine and not understanding the freedoms we have in Christ. When I believed salvation could be lost, I was very afraid of the teachings about eternal security. I was the one needing more information at that time. 

In my observations as well as in my own personal experience, when belief is questioned, it seems that anger is a first response but when someone is disagreeing with your POV, it is hurtful if they are also suggesting you're not walking with God or are not a true believer. I think I've done that on this site before. I've treated some people who really only needed more information as if they were altogether false. I don't want to do that anymore. I have been on the receiving end of it as well. But I confess it and I don't want to be that way anymore.

There are many things that are absolutes, both biblically and morally, such as lying, stealing, sexual immorality. These things aren't disputable. So believers get a little angry, and the anger is righteous anger, when someone wants to dispute these absolutes. The same is true for things that are doctrinal certainties -- things that believers also see as beliefs that are essential to the Christian faith, like the deity of Christ, the resurrection, and being saved by grace through faith. These are not disputable matters.

Saint Paul would get pretty severe with people like the Judaizers, and rightly so. Their doctrine was false.

So moral sin and false doctrine are two things that those believers who see the Word of God as the Word of God tend to deal with very definitively and conclusively because the Scriptures speak authoritatively on them. What the Bible calls sin, it is sin. For example, it may not be wrong to drink a glass of wine but it's wrong to get drunk based on a clear biblical principle about getting drunk.

I think right now, one big issue here in the forums, that's causing a rift is regarding belief about sin. One of the questions that needs answering are what does it mean to be in continual sin? Another is, if you are sinning when does it mean you're not really saved? I can understand that one's salvation is suspect when they sin but don't confess or repent, but Jesus talked about the 70 times 7 principle of forgiveness in Matthew 18. People sin. We don't have the right or an excuse. We constantly battle the flesh. We pursue holiness, mind renewal, all of it. We hate sin and long to be holy. 

We can expect Christians to disagree with each other. There must be agreement in the essentials or the fundamentals but in the non-essentials, we can have loving acceptance. We don't need to become defensive or to divide over doctrinal differences that aren't essential to the Christian faith. See Philippians 3:15.

I've heard it said before that we are to contend for the faith but not contend with the faithful. God is working in the lives of others and we don't have to forcibly persuade anyone to agree with our POV. We can trust God to work in the lives of the ones whom we know are erring. We can trust God to enlighten other Christians and make them grow spiritually and increase their faith. However, God chooses to use us in this process most of the time, and God will give us the grace to deal with others. We can speak the truth in love. We can trust that God is at work in people, drawing them to Jesus, and they will come to Christ, because the Father has given them to Jesus, and God chooses to use us in this process as well, as He seeks and saves the lost.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 21, 2014 at 10:26am

Tammy,

I am sorry if I have offended these that feel they are qualified to judge others. You said:

I think he was being facetious as well but I applaud watchman's reply because I was thinking almost the same things but let the comments ride. We are called to judge those things that are not of God. How are we to know the difference if we just sit back & say "it's all good.

To be honest, I consider some of Watchman's doctrinal beliefs to be far worse than these you have mentioned. Yet, you give her a pass while condemning Meyer. We all know that Meyer is just speculating what may have happened those last moments on the cross and afterwords. I grew up in that movement. I know a lot of these people personally. They have as many problems as you or I. Would I give millions to my children if I could? Would I live in million dollar home? I can't say simply because I do not have those kinds of gifts.

David was highly anointed and highly gifted yet misused his gifts to serve his own purposes. As a result, he had many, many problems yet is he with God today? Will we brand him as a false prophet? God uses people who are highly gifted to get jobs done. You and I don't qualify for that. Many do misuse their gifts. I think Meyer is misusing her gift but I am not ready to brand her a false prophet. Neither am I ready to brand Osteen a false prophet. I don't think you should either. 

Now, about these other doctrinal issues. I am quite sure that some who are deciding who are saved and who are not would possibly put you in in the "not" category. Some would put me in the "not" category as well. I personally think it is just downright wrong to do that. 

I can say that I don't agree with certain things without being condemning. I have often said that I am not a fan of the prosperity gospel anymore. However, I used to preach it. Was I lost when I was doing that? Was I a false prophet? When people get their doctrines wrong, are they a false prophet? If so, I think we have some right here on AAG. Obviously, Tammy, I do not believe we have any false prophets on this site. And, in my understanding of the Gospel, you would go in my "are as far as I know" column. Why, because you are confessing Jesus as your Savior and I believe you are a real believer in Him. I personally believe that all believers in Jesus as Savior are saved. As I said, I know these people and I think they are believers as well. I would also put Samson, Jonah, David and others in my "are" column. I would also put Joel Osteen in my "are as far as I know" column. I do not believe he is a false prophet. So, sorry, I just have to disagree with you. 

What is so amazing to me is this: as disobedient as David was, he was one of the greatest prophets in the Bible. Moses was perhaps the greatest prophet other than Jesus, yet had to die before reaching the promised land because of disobedience. Samson made the all-stars of faith, yet lived a total life of rebellious disobedience. His final act in this world as far as we know was an act of suicide. He did pray before he pushed down those pillars. I believe these and many more will be there when we get there and I, for one, am very glad. I am very glad that He made salvation absolutely free. Aren't you glad that you don't have to take an examination before you enter His presence? Aren't you happy that your life will not be brought into question when you stand before Him. Actually, I believe I will not have to stand before Him in judgment. I believe I have already been judged. I stand in Christ and He has been judged "not guilty" of any sin. All those that stand in Him, stand perfect before God. Are you thankful for that, Tammy? 

Not all agree with me on that and some might even call me a false prophet for teaching that. I believe that I will go on preaching that there are no price tags on salvation until He calls me home. Some, like you and I, need to know that. We are only saved by God's grace and so are these. 

Tammy, one more time let me reiterate that I do not believe that just because someone has their doctrine of soteriology somewhat wrong, that this makes them a false prophet.  I do not believe that we have any here on AAG. I'm sorry that I offended some by the "throwing us all in a room and telling us not to come out until we come into agreement" comment. Obviously, I was just speculating which some find very offensive on this site. 

Tammy, the verse you are quoting is:

Gal 1:8  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! NIV

What constitutes a false Gospel? I actually think we have reached a greater unity of faith than we think we have. I know there are those self-appointed watch guards out there that are ready to pounce on anything anyone says that is different than what they think the Gospel teaches. I have actually heard some say that Calvinists are seriously wrong. That is strictly foolishness in my thinking. Calvinists name Jesus as the only way to heaven. They believe faith in Him is the way unto salvation. They believe that Jesus is our eternal God. Arminians believe the same thing. There is great unity of the faith between these two camps. Most of these we have labeled or are close to labeling "false prophets" believe the same thing. To me, those are the main points of the Gospel. 

There are many other secondary issues. Some believe real wine is necessary at communion while others believe it is wrong to serve real wine in communion. What do you think was in that Passover cup that Jesus served? I believe it was wine yet where I take communion we use grape juice (only a recent trend in Evangelical churches). Let us not become consumed with secondary issues. I personally don't care if you drink wine or if you do not. If you are getting drunk on wine, I think you should stop drinking or at least curb it. But, getting drunk on wine does not cause you to lose your salvation IMO. Getting drunk can cause a lot of problems. Just ask Noah. 

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on September 27, 2014 at 7:25pm

Roy, no need in apologizing for not agreeing with me. I have no problem in disagreements. Thank you for your reply. Sorry for the late delay on the reply but I usually take time in prayer before I reply. I don’t always do that but I should do it with all of them. I do respect your opinion but I still remain steadfast in my view of these people. I want to comment on several statements to explain why I feel the way I feel or why I believe what I do. 

To be honest, I consider some of Watchman's doctrinal beliefs to be far worse than these you have mentioned. Yet, you give her a pass while condemning Meyer.  Thanks for being honest. Last thing I want to do is discuss anything with one who puts on a front or a mask. The doctrine I believe is so destructive is the “It’s So Fluffy” (Despicable Me) doctrine. The doctrine of saying if you just believe Jesus is Christ, you will be saved. There are verses that does say this but if used with other verses, it’s a bit deeper because many believe Jesus came, was crucified & even resurrected. I also think the doctrine of telling others to pray the ‘sinner’s’ prayer & you’re good to go is also dangerous. The things I’ve read about watchman’s doctrine is that faith without works is dead. Dead is dead. If faith is dead, it can do nothing. It can’t get you a mansion in the kingdom – nothing. It’s dead. I feel her doctrine speaks of the signs of being saved and if you’re saved, you would show these signs like obey the commandments.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

Matthew 19:17 And He said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.

John 9:31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him.

John 13:35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

John 14:15 
If ye love Me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23
 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him

John 15:10  If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

John 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

As far as giving her a pass, I kinda thought that was funny cause me giving a pass to anyone doesn’t mean a hill of beans unless I allow my kids a pass on being grounded or something. I have no problem in disagreeing with her if I believe she’s wrong & you can ask her, me & her have been head to head many times. We both still walked off believing we were right individually but also arm in arm still loving one another.

We all know that Meyer is just speculating what may have happened those last moments on the cross and afterwords. - Should a teacher of the word speculate about things in the word or should they stick to truth alone. Rev 22:19 says ‘And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.’ Granted, she didn't take anything away but she did 'speculate' which is adding to it. Now, if she would have said something like "I can just imagine Jesus when He went to hell...." or "I would almost bet when He went to hell...yadda yadda yadda". Stating it as speculation is one thing but stating it as fact is another. 

They have as many problems as you or I. - I don't doubt that in the least. 

Would I give millions to my children if I could? Actually, I feel like I almost do now as it is. My young'uns are pretty spoiled. However, the money used for them is earned through my husband's job as a Vice President of his company. It doesn't come from the money of others who are told that the money has to be given if they're going to be blessed or that giving is the main way in being obedient to God.

David was highly anointed and highly gifted yet misused his gifts to serve his own purposes. As a result, he had many, many problems yet is he with God today? Will we brand him as a false prophet? God uses people who are highly gifted to get jobs done. You and I don't qualify for that. Many do misuse their gifts.

Yes, I believe without a shadow of a doubt that David is with our Lord. No, he wasn’t a false prophet as his prophecies came to fruition. He was burdened & overcome by his failures and most of all he brought reproach on the Lord our God.  He was forgiven for these choices he made & repented although he still had to pay the consequences of those choices. I believe all those you mentioned are in heaven as well. They made many bad choices as we have or I know I have. That doesn’t stop the works of salvation.  Because of that salvation, we must walk in repentance  & obedience.

 I think Meyer is misusing her gift but I am not ready to brand her a false prophet. Neither am I ready to brand Osteen a false prophet. I don't think you should either. I, personally, have no problem in calling out false prophets. I can only base that on what I hear them preach or teach or watch how they live their lives. I’m not in a position to go with 2 or more witnesses to tell them the fault of their teachings because of their Celebrity Status. Paul called out names but I know I’m nowhere near Paul. I will be more careful in naming folks on other discussions however, out of respect for LT. I don’t believe in any of my replies I called anyone a false teacher though although I do have my personal beliefs & opinions on these people. I definitely believe Joel & his wife are closer to the definition of what one is then Joyce.

I am not a fan of the prosperity gospel anymore. However, I used to preach it. Was I lost when I was doing that? Was I a false prophet? When people get their doctrines wrong, are they a false prophet? I, too, use to believe along the lines of the prosperity gospel. I never could understand why my prayers were never being answered with a “yes” especially when I seen others around me prospering - I’m talking material possessions. I would think maybe I wasn’t praying the right thing. Maybe my faith wasn’t strong enough. Maybe I was backslidden so He wasn’t going to bless me. It didn’t take me too long to be slapped with the truth, Praise God

 I actually think we have reached a greater unity of faith than we think we have. I know there are those self-appointed watch guards out there that are ready to pounce on anything anyone says that is different than what they think the Gospel teaches…God has called us all to be watch guards so we can know the true from the false, the good from the evil, etc. We’re not to fall to any other gospel. We’re not to become bewitched in other beliefs. This is why we should always be ready in season & out.

 I personally believe that all believers in Jesus as Savior are saved. I’m sure this verse has already been quoted somewhere in this discussion but felt it needed repeating here: Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Matt 7:21

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James 2:19

I, too, am ever so thankful that His salvation is free of charge & find it an awesome blessing that I won’t be judged for the horrible things I’ve done.

 

I have actually heard some say that Calvinists are seriously wrong. That is strictly foolishness in my thinking. Calvinists name Jesus as the only way to heaven. They believe faith in Him is the way unto salvation. They believe that Jesus is our eternal God. Arminians believe the same thing. There is great unity of the faith between these two camps. Most of these we have labeled or are close to labeling "false prophets" believe the same thing.

I believe these 2 camps are bi-polar opposite in their views. I disagree with those who believe God has appointed those who will be saved & the others have no chance. I believe He knows who will choose Him but salvation is for all. That is the only thing I don’t agree with the Calvinists about although I do disagree with them calling themselves Calvinists unless they consider it to be a type of denomination. Now,  that’s the only thing that I know of Calvinists is their view of predestination. I’ve never studied this.

The Armenians are Catholic. They have a little addition to their view of Jesus being the only way to salvation. Their addition is that you must be saved through the Church as well. Now, they say they don’t believe that but they believe one must be baptized & accept the Euchrist to fulfill this salvation which they say can only be administered by the ‘priests’ which we know is in their Cathedrals. Didn’t want to use the word church because I don’t think the Catholics make up a church. We also know that we’re the royal priesthood now & that the veil was split the very second Christ died & allowed us to go boldly before the throne & into the holy of holies.

Sorry for the length of this. Feel free to take days to reply if you feel led to. It took me a week to reply to yours.

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 27, 2014 at 9:58pm

Tammy,

I think you are in agreement with me. There can be no question that all believers in Christ are saved. Jesus said very clearly that those who believe in Him will not die but have eternal life. Scripture also gives us instructions on how to live.

Why does Jesus seemingly make it so difficult for us to actually be saved? Why would He tell the rich man to sell all he had and follow Him? Why would He on the one hand say that His burden was light and then present an impossible burden to carry? There is only one person that can live up to His demands and that is He Himself. You and I even though we may try so much, will fail. We will not be able to do all that He has commanded. If salvation is conditional upon our success, we are not going to make it. 

Everything He demanded including being perfect as our Father, He successfully accomplished it. He did everything necessary unto salvation. The rich man was lost in his sins simply because he was depending upon himself rather than falling at the feet of Jesus and asking for mercy. Even if the rich man had obeyed that command, he would have failed in another. Yes, if a person can do all that God demands, he can be saved. No one can. There is not one person that can be righteous. Not one person can successfully complete all these demands. The demand is to be perfect. Even the great Apostle Paul admitted that he by necessity had to put his faith in Christ since he could not reach perfection. He was striving and we know he was pretty successful, but he still needed the righteousness of Christ to be considered holy. Holiness is an act of God within our lives. It is not something that you or I can generate, accomplish, or improve on. We are either holy or we are not holy. There is no process by which we attain holiness. Yet, without it, we are lost. 

There is only one way unto salvation and that is to trust Him Who made it possible for us. Only through Christ can we be saved. It may sound fluffy but it is the only way possible to get in. You will never reach a place in your life where you will have arrived. You will never obey enough, never be good enough. You will always need Him. We overcome because He overcame. We are righteous because His righteousness was credited to us because of our faith. 

As far as Calvinism and Arminianism I don't think it is all that important. You are mostly Arminian while I am mostly Calvinistic. Yet, my faith is not in the Calvinistic Gospel. My faith is in the work of Christ in His life, His death and resurrection. We are told that our faith was a gift - that even that you could not produce. However, how God gave us that faith is not critical. Whether or not you believe is what is critical. It is the difference of heaven and hell. 

Permalink Reply by thewatchman on September 27, 2014 at 10:21pm

wow....and wow....

Why does Jesus seemingly make it so difficult for us to actually be saved? Why would He tell the rich man to sell all he had and follow Him? Why would He on the one hand say that His burden was light and then present an impossible burden to carry?

Wha....aaaaat????

The rich man was lost in his sins simply because he was depending upon himself rather than falling at the feet of Jesus and asking for mercy.  Even if the rich man had obeyed that command he would have failed in another.

Again Wow, it wasn't because he was lost in his sins because he was depending upon himself rather than falling at the feet of Jesus and asking for mercy....it's because he didn't want to give all he had. period. Nothing in the Bible says that if the rich man would have obeyed that command he would have failed in another.....where are you getting this stuff from?...just curious.

 

Permalink Reply by Tammy on September 28, 2014 at 1:57am

You are mostly Arminian while I am mostly Calvinistic. - I'm guessing you mean this as "You may be baptist while I am pentecostal" or something like that because I'm way bi-polar then any Catholic I've met or known. Their beliefs are sooooooo saturated with beliefs just like the Pharisees. Actually, most of their beliefs are passed down by TRADITION & not based on the word of God or the Bible that you & I base our beliefs on.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 28, 2014 at 4:39am

Tammy,

Have you ever met just one person that completely followed Christ through their actions? It is illogical for us to say that there is no one that has ever done it since we have not known everyone. Yet, I have never known a person to be able to do that. The truth is we all fail. Some fail every day. Some fail more often than that. Yet, all fail. If you set up the Gospel to be saying that all failures go to hell, then all will go to hell. There is only One that could live that perfect life. For example, look at this one:

Matt 5:31-32 "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. NIV

How many of those in the church do we need to get rid of with this one? Half? Christians are divorcing for much lesser reasons. Are they all lost? Their only hope is asking God to forgive them for living in certain states. Take a look at this one:

Matt 5:27-30 27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. NIV

How many commit this sin over and over and over? Many of us can say that we have never committed adultery. Yet, how many can say that they never think of it? I would say that only the abnormal or the liar could make that boast. 

Of course, we all have the option of asking for forgiveness when we sin. However, for those who demand a system of doing, that option is really not on the table. Once you admit that you are forced to ask Jesus for forgiveness over and over and over and over, you are admitting that you are a failure. You can't do it. You need a Savior. I believe that is all of us. There is not one among us that is righteous in themselves. We all must fall on the mercy of God for salvation. Otherwise, we ALL would be lost. 

Tammy, I can't believe you are buying into this system of doing for salvation. There are not many out there that strive for perfection more than I but I will tell you clearly and with no hesitation that I fail. I am the one that needs Jesus. I am the one that admits, "Lord, I am a failure. I can't do all that You have commanded. Please forgive me of all my weaknesses. I believe You were successful. And, I believe You died in my stead. Thank You, for this free gift of salvation."

I understand the objections people have against this free salvation. Yet, it really comes down to the fact of perfect living or asking for forgiveness. You have already admitted, Tammy, which category you fall into. I have as well. Tammy, how many times do you have to ask Jesus to forgive you? Once a month? Once a week? How many? If you say that you have to ask Him for forgiveness every day then you are telling me that you sin every day. Why would you want to join a group that pretends they don't fail - every day. My confessions is this:

I need Thee, O I need Thee, Every hour I need Thee.

He knows that none of us are perfect. Yet, if you desire salvation through your works, nothing less than perfection will do. For all the rest, we need Jesus to forgive our sins and to save us from our sins. That is our only hope. Jesus is our only hope. He came to save the weak. They may still not be perfect in themselves. Nevertheless, they are saved. That is the promise of God and I don't understand why we are making that so difficult by putting price tags on it. 

Maybe, what they are really saying is that we all need to try harder. I can buy into that one. We all do need to try harder. Can I get just a little rest? Can I have just one Sabbath where my Priest does it for me? Can I find rest for this weary soul? Tammy, have you ever studied the Sabbath? There were weekly Sabbaths and then there were other special Sabbaths. One of those special days was the Day of Atonement. On this day you were not allowed to do anything. The priest had to do it all. Why are we not seeing the significance of the Sabbath? Why do we think it is on us to do the work when He has already done it all? 

This is the day that the Lord has made,

I will rejoice and be glad in it.

I live in the day of perfect and complete forgiveness. Once again, this day, I will be headed to a church gathering to give praise to my Savior. The church is not perfect. The pastor is not perfect - even though he is my son. The people are not perfect. We rejoice because we all have had all our sins forgiven. 

Tammy, why are you laying out for me a list of commands that not even you can do? Please, tell me about our wonderful Savior. Tell me what He has done. Quit reminding me so much about my being a failure. I could go to the Lakewood church in Houston and worship. I know the pastors are not perfect. Then again, none of us are. 

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 28, 2014 at 5:55am

Tammy,

Here is a quick read to give a really brief comparison to what the two groups and the many factions thereof believe:

Calvinism-vs-Arminianism

Lord Bless,

LT

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