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Victoria Osteen & the response
Victoria Osteen – the “response” that shows she is a typical false teacher
by Sandy Simpson, 9/8/14
It never ceases to amaze me how people who claim to be “Christian” leaders are apparently NEVER able to admit when they are wrong. Makes you wonder if they are born again because acceptance of the Gospel will cause a person to repent of their sins which then gives them access to the forgiveness of Christ when they sin from that point on (1 John 1:9). But be that as it may, Victoria, the “co-pastor” and wife of Joel Osteen, fires back at the article in the Christian Post entitled: “Victoria Osteen Ripped for Telling Church 'Just Do Good For Your O... by claiming they lied about what she said. She claims in her statement back to them in the article called “Victoria Osteen Chides Critics: I Didn't Mean Parishioners Shouldn... that they claimed that she said a person should not worship God.
"While I admit that I could have been more articulate in my remarks, I stand by my point that when we worship God and are obedient to Him we will be better for it," she told The Blaze in a statement Friday. "I did not mean to imply that we don't worship God; that's ridiculous, and only the critics and cynics are interpreting my remarks that way." (Christian Post, “Victoria Osteen Chides Critics: I Didn't Mean Parishioners Shouldn...)
That is not what they said at all. The title of the article is very specific in their correct analysis of her “ridiculous” statement – that she stated that “worship is not for God, it is for yourself”. So she lied in her response.
But the real problems are that she claims the following in her response:
"I just want to encourage every one of us to realize when we obey God, we're not doing it for God—I mean, that's one way to look at it—we're doing it for ourselves, because God takes pleasure when we're happy," she said in the 36-second clip posted on YouTube, with her husband smiling at her side. "That's the thing that gives Him the greatest joy … So, I want you to know this morning: Just do good for your own self. Do good because God wants you to be happy," she continued. "When you come to church, when you worship Him, you're not doing it for God really. You're doing it for yourself, because that's what makes God happy. Amen?" the clip ended as congregants cheered. (Christian Post, “Victoria Osteen Chides Critics: I Didn't Mean Parishioners Shouldn...)
So she not only did not apologize for her statements and lied about how people quoted her, but she reiterated their same, tired, false Word of Faith teaching again. She states that worshipping God is not for Him but for us. Why? Because when we are happy that makes God happy. Oh really? What about the stories of Job, Stephen, Paul suffering from a “thorn”, and all the other prophets and apostles who died serving God? They were not worshipping God so they could be “happy”, they were worshipping God because of Who He is!
Victoria has also not read the Bible, which you would think would be a requirement for someone to be a head pastor of a church. The Bible is clear that the thing that brings God “joy” is our obedience.
John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
1 John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
Love and worship for God is not predicated on how we feel or the amount of joy we have. It is predicated on obedience to Him BECAUSE HE IS GOD! Victoria also tells her audience that they need to “do good because God wants you to be happy”. We don’t do good so WE can be happy. That may be a consequence of doing good, at times, but the important thing is that, in the most difficult circumstances, we simply obey Him because we know He will be pleased with us on that basis. But our “happiness” is not the end. But it is for the Osteens. Almost every word of every message from them is the New Thought idea that we can create our own little world of happiness by simply thinking and speaking positively. I have written about this idea, which is basically Karma, in an article entitled “Karma (by any other name)”. God wants us to submit our will to His, not willfully try to create our own reality that is often not in line with His purposes.
Finally, the scary part is that the “congregants cheered” after Victoria finishes her diatribe. This reminds me of a warning from the Old Testament against heretics like the Osteens:
Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?
Someday every person who has ever been born on this earth will answer to God for their actions. You can either fool yourself into thinking you are happy because of your positive thoughts and confessions, or you can follow God and obey Him, thus proving your love for Him. Better choose correctly because “what will you do in the end?”
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Roy,
I have a question for you, because you have me completely confused regarding your position. You have engaged people on AAG and fought very diligently defending a young earth position calling out those who see the earth as old and proclaiming that the old earth position is in contradiction to salvation. Yet, here you appear to give a pass to comments that tell us "when we obey God, we're not doing it for God—I mean, that's one way to look at it—we're doing it for ourselves, because God takes pleasure when we're happy" and "When you come to church, when you worship Him, you're not doing it for God really. You're doing it for yourself, because that's what makes God happy. Amen?"
We could debate whether the person is a false teacher, but first we ought to examine the teaching in light of the Bible. Do you believe that what she said is true? Is this in alignment with the gospel message? I truly am confused by your defense of this and really would like you to help me understand your POV.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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LT,
Thank you for reopening the discussion. If I have ever thought (I don't think I thought it was necessary to believe in a young earth to be saved) that it was necessary to believe in a young earth for salvation, then I was wrong. At this point I don't have the time to go back and view all my discussions on a young earth. I do believe the Bible teaches a young earth. I have spent many hours developing a chronological timeline from Adam to today. I have based that timeline on both Exodus 12:40 and Galatians 3:17. The two timelines are different and I cannot explain that. Obviously, there is something there that I am missing. At this point I believe the Galatians 3 timeline is the correct one.
The difference of the two timelines in two hundred and fifteen years. That is not billions of years but it is different. I am spending time in the Scripture trying to figure out which one is correct. Were the four hundred and thirty years from the promise or from the time Jacob moved his family to Egypt? I believe the 430 years are from the time of the promise which is two hundred and fifteen years before Israel went down to Egypt.
Obviously, I believe that modern philosophy has affected how people think towards Scripture. Billions of years has nothing to do with Scripture. I see no where that can be justified according to Scripture. What I am saying, here, is that if I don't understand the chronological timeline given us in Scripture, how could I make that an essential doctrine? I do believe it is essential to believe in Scripture as from God.
As far as the statement from Victoria, I don't even know that I really understand what she is saying. It appears to me that she is saying that when we obey God, we are not just doing it for God (the meaning of the "that's one way to look at it) but we are doing it for ourselves as well. If that is the meaning, I agree with it. However, I am not defending the statement. I am defending her. I believe their confession of faith is genuine.
If I said that one needed to believe in a young earth to be saved, I am confident that is an incorrect statement. The Bible is very clear on the issue of salvation. Those who believe in Him are saved from their sin (which would include incorrect non-essential statements). Those who do not believe are condemned. I do believe there are essential beliefs necessary unto salvation. You know those essential beliefs. I do not believe you can just believe that Jesus was a historical figure that lived two thousand years ago that was a great prophet and then died and was buried. I don't believe that will save you. I believe He is eternal God that came to this earth and lived a perfect life fulfilling every single demand required of God to be called the perfect sacrifice. Once all the work necessary for salvation was completed, He was hung on a cross and died in our stead for our sins. I believe He rose on the third day and after some forty days ascended and is even now at the right hand of God making intercession for me and you and all other believers on this site. I believe this faith saves us from all our sins. We are reborn and receive the right to be called his children.
I think the Osteens also believe this. My faith, however, is not in the Osteens but is in Jesus alone. I know I believe these things and am confident in Him as Savior. I was very upset with Joel when he appeared on the Larry King show. I also thought he was a false prophet. However, he recanted or repented of saying those things and I felt very foolish for making such a quick judgment. How can I say that he does not genuinely believe in those things he says he believes in?
I also believe that obedience will make our lives better. Victoria appears to believe that it will make us happier. Disobedience to God is not an advisable thing. Those that are living in disobedience will suffer grave consequences. I just don't believe that the loss of salvation is one of those consequences. I am very grateful for salvation. I do not have a lot of confidence in myself but I have 100% confidence in Jesus. I am confident He will get me home.
If one is looking for information about Joel Osteen being a false prophet, he can keyboard the words "Is Joel Osteen a false prophet," and get page and page of hits. You could also plug in the name "Charles Stanley" and get page after page affirming that he is also a false prophet. I think we need to be more careful with our search engines, maybe even become more responsible with them, and quit believing everything we find on the internet.
I hope this clears up the misunderstanding.
Roy
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LT,
I don't want to get off subject here but I do believe it is essential to believe in Scripture. There are some things about the doctrine of Creation that I do believe are essential. I must admit that I struggle greatly with those that do not believe that Adam was the first man. I don't see how that can be explained away. I think Adam being the first man is biblically essential. Yet, I do keep coming back to the death, burial and resurrection of God our Savior. Yet, I just don't see how you can get away with Adam not being the first man. I believe that it was Adam's sin that brought condemnation upon all mankind and that it was Jesus' sacrifice that brought healing to those wounds for all who call on His name.
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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I personally don't care if you drink wine or if you do not. If you are getting drunk on wine, I think you should stop drinking or at least curb it. But, getting drunk on wine does not cause you to lose your salvation IMO. Getting drunk can cause a lot of problems. Just ask Noah.
A question from me...
What do you believe, if you believe that Scripture is true, of this Scripture as opposed to your previous statement. Now before I ask this: I am not stating a one time sin and repentance to that sin, but to a persistent sin that is not repented of in direct correlation to this statement in the Bible:
1 Cor. 6 -
9Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with mena 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Are you disagreeing with God?
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Watchman,
I'm not sure that I really want to get into it with you. Would it be enough to say that I don't agree with your interpretation or at least what I think you are implying by the post?
Let me just say this: "If sin is going to send us to hell, that's where we are all headed." The Scripture you have quoted requires you to read further - just one more verse and you will have my answer.
Why do you ask me if I am disagreeing with God? When you do that you are saying that your interpretation of what Scripture is saying is God's interpretation. What do you think Paul is saying when he says, "Everything is permissible to me." NIV
It appears he is contradicting himself. Yet, in proper context it all makes perfect sense.
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In your above statement you said that Joel recanted or repented of saying those things while on the Larry King show, but went on the Oprah's show [newager] and basically said the same exact things???
You don't believe that disobedience to God is something that will result in our loss of salvation, yet the Bible clearly discloses that our obedience is representative of Whom we belong to. So are you disagreeing with God when He says that those who love Him obey Him? Are you saying that those who are disobedient to God but even tho we believe in Him we will be saved?
Do you disagree with God when the Scripture says: Even the demons believe and tremble?
There aren't 3 courts, only 2, believers and nonbelievers, wheat and tares, condemned and saved, righteous & unrighteous. No middle ground. It's tough, I know, perhaps that's why the Bible declares that "few" will get through the strait gate and the narrow road & the many will be on the broad road of destruction.
God states nothing in His Word about those who continue in sin...living a life in eternity. His words are always about those who are victorious, who overcome, who labor, who strive, who deny themselves, who abide....run the race to win, etc. nothing about those who end up in fear or cowardice, or are defeated.
Roy, I like you, I really do, I just pray that you will receive these words in a kind way.
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Watchman,
What offends me is when you set yourself up as God. You are not God. You are no more than any of the rest of us seeking to understand God's Word. In your last two posts, you have used these words:
Do you disagree with God when the Scripture says: Even the demons believe and tremble?
And then again: Are you disagreeing with God?
I am going to be honest and just say those words are offensive. I think you are wrong in several of your interpretations. However, privately I have spoken well of you. I don't know you but I do assume you are a very good person. I don't consider you any better or any worse than the rest of us. I know you are striving to live for God the best you can as am I.
To me, this quote is a works-based salvation quote:
God states nothing in His Word about those who continue in sin...living a life in eternity. His words are always about those who are victorious, who overcome, who labor, who strive, who deny themselves, who abide....run the race to win, etc. nothing about those who end up in fear or cowardice, or are defeated.
I believe this is an incorrect statement. You put the pressure on the people to succeed in order to achieve their salvation. This is just an example. I think this is a very misleading statement. You use statements like "God always says or God never states, etc." I think you are very wrong. However, I do believe your faith is in Christ just as mine and that we remain brother and sister in Christ. We may disagree on these issues but we know our Savior is Jesus. I do see your setting yourself up almost equal to God as if you have a special channel into His throne. I don't think you should do that.
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I am so very sorry that you see me in this way, Roy.
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Watchman,
Are you sad that I see you as a good person or sad that I don't think you should set yourself up as a spokesman for God?
I think you have a very important role on AAG. However, I don't think you should attempt to shut people down by presenting your position as God's position. We are all seeking to understand God's Word more. If your word is the final word, then there is no need for further discussion When you say I am disagreeing with God when I am simply disagreeing with your position, that does downgrade the conversation.
Do you agree or disagree with this? I love to discuss Scripture with those who have different opinions. You and I very definitely have different points of view.
You asked me a question about I Cor 6 and I responded. Yet, you did not respond to my response which leads me to think you had no response. I didn't want you to ignore that next verse.
Anyway, I am convinced you are a wonderful person who is seeking to follow after God. I am convinced that you are a believer and fellow believer in Christ. Therefore, as Ribbon correctly put it, my sister in Christ. It made me feel good when she said you were my sister. She was acknowledging that I was a brother in Christ. That was good.
I pray your day goes very well.
Brother Roy
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Hi Roy,
"You asked me a question about I Cor 6 and I responded. Yet, you did not respond to my response which leads me to think you had no response. I didn't want you to ignore that next verse."
I'm sorry, I was getting ready for work this morning and didn't have much time, I wasn't ignoring that verse. I am on break right now...so again, I don't have much time... :)
If you are referring to verse 11 that I posted above, which says: 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
I believe that this verse is given as a reminder to them.
This commentary regarding this verse reads:
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 9. - Know ye not; rather, Or know ye not, as before. Are you defying God, or does your sin arise from mere ignorance? The unrighteous;better, that wrong doers, the verb being the same as "ye do wrong" in ver. 8. Perhaps the Corinthians thought that they would be saved by the mere fact of having been admitted into God's kingdom (the Christian Church in all its highest privileges) by baptism. St. Paul here lays down, as distinctly as St. James does, that faith without works is dead, and privileges without holiness are abrogated. The spirit of his warning is the same as that of Jeremiah 7:4, "Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord... are these;" or that of St. John the Baptist, "Say not unto yourselves, We be Abraham's sons." Christians have often been liable to the temptation of underrating the peril which results from the falling asunder of action from knowledge. There can be no greater danger than that of talking slightingly of "mere morality." Religion is not an outward service, but a spiritual life manifested by a holy living. Be not deceived.So our Lord says," Let no man deceive you" (Mark 13:5; comp. 1 John 3:7). St. Paul uses the warning very solemnly again in 1 Corinthians 15:33 and Galatians 6:7, and St. James in James 1:16. The self deception of merely verbal orthodoxy is the most dangerous of all. Neither fornicators. The first four classes of sinners were specially prevalent at Corinth, where, indeed, impurity formed part of the recognized cult of the local Aphrodite (comp. 2 Corinthians 12:21). Lists of these "works of the flesh," which were the all but universal curse and stain of heathendom, occur also in Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Timothy 1:10, etc.; Colossians 3:5-7.And here is Gill's Commentary [I think that everyone here likes to use]
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?.... A way of speaking much like that in the Talmud, "know thou, that the world to come is not made but for the righteous?" (h) Without a righteousness there will be no entrance into the world of bliss and happiness hereafter; and this must be a better righteousness than what a sinful creature is capable of working out, and no other than the righteousness of Christ. It was a loss and want of righteousness that cast the angels down from heaven, and turned Adam out of paradise; and whoever of his posterity: are destitute of one, will fall short of enjoying the glory of God; for it is not agreeable to the holy nature of God, to his infinite justice and righteous law, to admit any into heaven without a righteousness: hence a judgment seat is erected, before which all must stand; and those that will be found without a righteousness, will be for ever excluded the kingdom of heaven; and could any unrighteous persons be received there, it would spoil the pleasure and happiness of the saints. Now this is said, partly to dissuade the Corinthians from going to law with each other before unrighteous persons, who have no right to the kingdom of God, and living and dying as they are, will have no share in it; and therefore since they are not to be fellow heirs and companions with them in another world, they should not bring their causes before them in this; and partly to reprove them for their injurious and unrighteous actions among themselves, their tricking and defrauding of one another, with other sins they were guilty of; which, if not repented of, would show, that notwithstanding their profession, they were destitute of the grace of God, were unfit to be in the kingdom of God, in a Gospel church state here below, and would be shut out of the kingdom of heaven hereafter.
Be not deceived imagining, that through your knowledge and profession you shall be saved, live as you will:
neither fornicators, such as are guilty of uncleanness with persons in a single state:
nor idolaters; who worship more gods than one, and not the true God; who do service to them that are not gods, and perform what the Jews call "strange service": and not only fall down to stocks and stones, but serve divers lusts and pleasures, the idols of their own hearts:
nor adulterers: such as have criminal conversation with persons in a married state:
nor effeminate; or "soft", or, as the Syriac renders it, "corrupters"; that is, of themselves, by voluntary pollution, such as are guilty of the sin of Onan, Genesis 38:8.
Nor abusers of themselves with mankind; sodomites.
(h) T. Bab. Yebamot, fol 47. 1.http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
I've got to go, but I hope this helps explain a little bit. :)
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Without a righteousness there will be no entrance into the world of bliss and happiness hereafter
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Romans 6:18God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21First off, we're made righteous when we accept Christ, then there is the period of becoming righteous in our actions by training. One may continue in an area of sin but be rebuked and severely "spanked" if you will. They may feel a lot of conviction and want to quit and pray daily and try and try to until one day God gives them a revelation or they learn how to access His strength that will help them out of that situation. The one who feels no conviction or remorse are the ones who were never truly saved.
But on this area of 1 Corinthians 6:
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
None who are these things will see the Kingsom, BUT...
11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
This does not say you stopped all this immediately, it simply points to what Christ did. He washed us, sanctified and justified us and then we begin to feel the sting of conviction.
And by the way, no one is "justifying" the sin, but explaining why some may still have trouble with the flesh "for a time". And that doing so does not mean they're unsaved.
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