God or the devil?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 19, 2014 at 4:34am

Again, by stating "I'd start with the simplest of good" you are applying a human definition. What does Scripture say when calling things good, especially when coupled with the good thing being a gift.

Keep in mind that there are 4 in action. There is God, Satan, man and the natural laws of nature.

I wonder if we often mix rewards with gifts. The Bible says if a man does not work he does not eat (paraphrased). So if a man works and eats is the result of his working and eating a gift or the result of obeying God? The Bible says that our life is a gift and thus by the very fact that we have life and are able to work we are operating from the gift of life, but is the result of labor that we are commanded to do really a gift or the result of obedience?

When God says we will not lack we need to put that into perspective. What does that really mean? Does it mean we will never go without a meal or a roof over our head? No, that can't be it for there are parents around the world today who love Jesus who will bury their children today who have died from starvation. Thus, is God's Word in error? Is God a liar? Or do we misunderstand what is meant by meeting our needs or the fact that we will lack nothing that we need? In our society today we have moved the value meter from eternity to temporal. God is put into a box and expected to act according  to my good pleasure here on earth ... yet time and time again God reveals in His Word (as does history) just how hard it is to be a Christian living in a fallen world.

Too many people forget this is a fallen world filled with fallen people. One day it will all be destroyed and remade in perfection, but until then we are ambassadors living in a hostile land representing the King of kings to a lost and dying world who hate Jesus and us.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 19, 2014 at 5:14am

Well I'm examining the scripture. And since God says He feeds the sparrows and clothes the lilies then food and clothing would be something He offers to provide. So I wonder when people do starve if they had as much faith as they thought or if there's something else I don't see so I can examine my own faith.

But then you bring up if a man does not work...there are countries where they labor hard and don't just miss a meal but suffer starvation with distended bellies from hunger.

None of this makes God's Word in error but only brings up questions that you nor I nor anyone understand since His ways are beyond understanding.

But for myself I see the scripture about trouble and about provision and I see a mixture of both good and bad that we all experience. I would even say something can be both. Jesus' death was both. It was sorrowful to those around Him and even painful to God. Yet it was a pain endured for the good that it was intended for.

It's not hard to tell good from bad. Just because, unlike God, we can't see the future doesn't mean we can't see the good or bad in something as it is now.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 19, 2014 at 5:42am

So I wonder when people do starve if they had as much faith as they thought or if there's something else I don't see so I can examine my own faith.
Would you like to meet some of the mothers who have lost their children to starvation, or because another religion raided their village, and question their faith or lack of faith? That is a typical and very poor answer often given by people when this subject comes up. I recognize that you included “or f there’s something else …”, but the damage is already done on the front end of that statement. It attempts to sweep away all of these in the possibility that none of them have a faith in Christ. Do you believe none of them, zero, have faith? Did Paul lack faith when he learned what it was like to do without and learn to be content with whatever he had?

But then you bring up if a man does not work...there are countries where they labor hard and don't just miss a meal but suffer starvation with distended bellies from hunger.
The Scripture does not say that simply because we work we will eat. It says that if he does not work he does not eat. Living in various parts of this fallen world bring about different results.

But for myself I see the scripture about trouble and about provision and I see a mixture of both good and bad that we all experience.

Again, based on our perspective of what is good and bad.

It's not hard to tell good from bad. Just because, unlike God, we can't see the future doesn't mean we can't see the good or bad in something as it is now.

I finish this with again stating that most of what you are saying is based on human experience and evaluating good and bad by our understanding of good and bad. What does God’s Word say about good gifts? His Word is the authority and standard.

 

Keep in mind that your question was about the involvement of God and Satan in what we perceive to be good or bad situations. I inject that there are other causes that also play in and that neither God nor Satan are behind every event. Sometimes it is because we live in a fallen world with fallen people and we also are constrained by the natural laws of nature.

 

Many of the choices we face in life are ours to make. God has given us many liberties in this life. There are consequences to every decision, but not every consequence is going to have a high eternal or temporal ramification. The chief end of man is to glorify God. We are to live life with God, His Word, eternity and others in view.

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 19, 2014 at 6:02am

No if you read it for what it truly was...the examining my own faith should have been the indicator. And this due to a devotion yesterday that you didn't see which causes me to wonder about the topic of faith. Since God says faith will move mountains.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 19, 2014 at 6:08am

I get that, but the first part is a typical answer to this question and with it included as you did it damages the rest of what I trust you really mean and meant to say.

At this point I am ready to move on, for I am not sure that I am communicating effectively and further discussion can be perceived (if not already) as simply argumentative ... which is not my desire.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 19, 2014 at 6:26am

Well not wanting to be argumentative, but here's what I'm trying to figure out in relation to my own faith.  I've been ill for awhile.  I got a devotion in email yesterday from a woman who had a red itchy face for many years.  She saw doctor after doctor.  Finally she realized like the woman with the issue of blood, she'd spent all she had.  She was embarrassed to go to work and she tried desperately not to claw at her face that itched constantly and she woke every morning with bad headaches and took a lot of pain pills, and this went on for twelve years.  So she started to study and find every scripture on healing, wrote them down and would read them every moment she could of every day and her face cleared up and her headaches went away. 

Jesus said we'd heal but how many are healing?  He told his disciples when they couldn't cast out a demon "Ye of little faith".  I guess they could take offense at that the same way.  But what is it saying?  What does this woman's experience say?  Is it that we could all use a bit more faith?

I think we can all use a good examination of our faith and find out why we're not healing, ourselves OR others. 

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 19, 2014 at 8:06am

You went in a different direction, so I will respond to this new line of thinking.

We all need to examine our faith. In fact, a reality most don't like is, we are all weak in faith when we use Jesus as our standard instead of the person sitting next to us in church.

Regarding healing there are three major components to recognize after we get past that God does not in his Word guarantee healing to all if they just have enough faith (I can hear the comments coming now and I will give an illustration in a moment). The three components are God's will, our obedience and faith. If God has a plan for our illness it is going to last for however long and may never be resolved in this life. Job could have prayed his heart out and believed that God was able and wanted heal him, but it was not going to happen until God's will (plan) had come to fruition.

Let's look at the three very briefly and then I will get to the illustration of my encounter with a faith healer in one of the Bible studies I led a few years back.

Faith: Most go to Paul and his thorn, but I prefer to look at Timothy and his stomach issue. If there are two people in Scripture that we would think had great faith (among others) it would be Paul and Timothy, Paul's son in the Lord. Paul tells Timothy to take a little wine for His stomach, but wait ... this is an ailment, some form of illness. He did not tell him to have more faith, nor did he say come to me so that I can lay hands on you to heal you. He said take some wine. Now, some have argued it wasn't that important. That is subjective. Are we going to proclaim then that Jesus only heals the important ones? It was important enough and serious enough for Paul to write to him about it in the epistle and is there for us 2000 years later to read. This would have been a great opportunity for Paul to teach the young church about faith and healing rather than just take some wine if healing is ALWAYS available.

Obedience: God does not bless disobedience directly. The sun and rain fall on the wicked and the righteous, but a direct blessing need not be expected when our lives are being lived in rebellion to God and His Word.

God's Will: His will trumps all. Unless one can provide a clear Scripture that deals with God always, every time, healing those who come to Him we cannot conclude His will is that in the flesh we will all be healed.

True Story:

In my Thursday night Bible group we had a visitor who proclaimed to be a faith healer who had seen hundreds, if not thousands, healed. We were studying the Book of Genesis and he waited patiently until the opportunity to present itself for him to turn the discussion towards healing. He proclaimed that it is always God's will to heal and that all that is required is having enough faith. So I asked him in order to confirm his position if he believed God wants to heal everyone and that is what God's Word teaches ... he said "yes." I asked him is faith was what was required in order to see healing and a lack of healing demonstrates a lack of faith ... he said "yes." I then asked him why he wore glasses if God wants us healed and it only requires faith and you proclaim to be a faith healer. He mumbled a few things, but I asked him again about him wearing glasses. His final answer before he left ... I guess I don't have enough faith .... I let it go at that point. Now, some want to say that wearing glasses is not that big a deal, but again, where do we draw the line? If we believe that God always heals is God only interested in the big diseases and infirmities or all of our infirmities? What, then, would qualify as a big one? Food for thought.

Let me conclude this with a POV on my part. I do not believe that we are seeing as many healings taking place as is available. I do not believe that every failure to heal is God's will, nor do I believe that every failure is a lack of faith. I believe we need to examine our obedience, our faith and seek for His will (ultimately being willing to rest in His will).

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 19, 2014 at 8:14am

Seek,

If interested you will find a two part message I gave on Divine Healing in the last church I pastored. Scroll down to March and you will see both there.

New Life Community Chapel 2011

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 19, 2014 at 8:25am

Well when you bring up Paul and Timothy, I think His disciples witnessed His miracles and so they had to have great faith and yet He told them they had little faith.  But then yes, Job puts another spin on it, or does it?  I mean, Job was righteous.  He was obeying God.  But did He have enough "faith"?  He was pretty much even questioning why God was doing this, blaming God.  He accepted it, he acquiesced that God was God and he would continue to worship Him, but he still complained about how he was being treated.  I see so many that swear by faith, to the point that they will say they're already healed even when they hurt.  Some that say God doesn't heal like He did then, that that was to increase the faith then but now we don't need that to give us faith, we already know the Gospel.  Some that say God  withholds healing to teach us things.  Some that say God wants us healed and has sent healing, but we have to wait for it to manifest. 

I gotta hand it to JB, he hit the nail squarely on the head when he brought up that Jesus won't return until we all reach unity of faith.  LOL

But all these beliefs and I'm still trying to sort out for myself if they all mean we still just need more faith or if they mean faith isn't the only source, a combination of all or what.  I mean, I thought I had some really great faith on something early on...so much so I was absolutely convinced of it, and yet.  So when I think about faith, I'm trying to gauge if my faith was still too weak then or if there's just more to it.  I've often wondered on Timothy, Paul's thorn, Job.  But I keep going back to the faith part and I'm trying to find where they meet.

I'm going to start the sermon you posted now and listen while I try to get some work done.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 19, 2014 at 8:41am

I gotta hand it to JB, he hit the nail squarely on the head when he brought up that Jesus won't return until we all reach unity of faith.

Is that really what the totality of Scripture teaches? Does it really teach that we as believers will move toward a oneness on earth so that we agree with each other on all issues before Christ returns ... is that unity?  ... no, unfortunately it does not teach that. I love JB, though he and I see eye-to-eye on many things and disagree on other things, this is one we will disagree on since you brought it into the conversation.

I will respond to the rest later.

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 19, 2014 at 8:59am

LOL Oh well, I still like the comment.  I'm listing to Part I.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 19, 2014 at 9:24am

Rather than respond at this point I will wait until you listen to these two messages. I believe they address your questions, may not answer them, but does address them :-)

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