Victoria Osteen & the response

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on September 12, 2014 at 8:42pm

My husband can cook some sick lobster. That stuff is sooooo good. His is better then the most expensive of restaurants. 

Permalink Reply by thewatchman on September 12, 2014 at 7:58pm

 "I agree with the statement, but not being picky, but rather to make a point ... if we employ the logic you have been using regarding essentials and non-essentials how would one know what they should be fighting for instead of the other less important things they tend to fight for? There has to be a standard."

At times, a minor doctrine can have an enormous affect on what one believes about a major doctrine. 

As someone who labored years and years to stay saved, believing that any kind of disobedience could cause loss of salvation because one can push God to His limits and in His indignation, God will cast disobedient children away, it did affect my view of salvation, making it works-based. 

At this point, I have a very difficult time understanding that others can choose not to believe in eternal security but also not have a works-based salvation. When someone begins trying to tell me my POV regarding eternal security is wrong, to me, it feels like I'm being pulled back into the bondage of following the code of the law, and, also, trying to be persuaded that what I had been under wasn't legalism at all, when, for me, it was a very heavy yoke. 

So, I have been fighting for the minor doctrine of eternal security as if it was an essential doctrine. All of the painful memories of my past experience of being under legalism, including the painful lies I have believed about God, are all tied into, and help fuel, that fight, as I try to keep from drowning in that deep sea of fear and doubt, again, because I'm not rooted or strong in this area of faith.

Now, I'm learning that others can believe they can lose salvation for sinning but still obey God for the right reasons, and not out of fear of falling from grace, because they don't have the same view of God that I have had -- don't believe the lies I've believed: "I'm not good enough" "I can't conquer sin" "I can never change" "I can't make God happy" and on and on.

So much pressure. 

I feel, at times, as if I'm fighting for my very life because it did get to that point, and I wanted to end it all. I started believing the lie that there is no use to go on, just end your suffering now, and go on to hell instead of suffering like this in this life and then going to hell, too.

That is so sad Amanda.  

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 14, 2014 at 7:41am

Amanda,

Thank you for sharing, thank you for your transparency. It is very refreshing and God glorifying.

Our God is amazing, He is beautiful and it's beautiful to see his workmanship in us.

Blessings :)

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on September 14, 2014 at 7:13pm

David,
I'm so thankful that God is patient. For those who have never had such fear and doubt, I realize they're not always able to understand that overcoming it is harder than it seems.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on September 13, 2014 at 8:39pm

LT I don't want to keep looking for the reply button so...

Insufficient answer. Please expound. Does what Abraham did with Melchizedek qualify as a rule for tithing and if so, what did he actually tithe? Is the rule for tithing what was given to the nation of Israel in regards to operating as a nation and to provide care for the priests establish the rule for today? If so, what was the tithe that was called for? What is the rule given regarding tithing in the NT and in what verse do we find this rule given or repeated as applied to the church? If biblical tithing is to be expected today, then what are we supposed to tithe and why is the expectation, and only expectation, money?

You need to reword these or something cause I've read them repeatedly and still don't know how to answer. All I know is Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek. I didn't know there was any additional information on that tithe than that. As for tithing for Israel establishing the rule for today...don't know that either. Just that "all scripture" including those on OT tithing is given for training. So it's there for a reason.

For the NT, I've often wondered about Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 14, 2014 at 6:16am

Seek.

Hopefully you will take this comment as intended, instructive and not negative. Your response highlights a point I made earlier. You believe something to be true (i.e. the tithe), yet you really don’t know why you believe it to be true, other than this is what you have been taught. I, again, applaud you for seeking the truth, but be careful of fighting for something you assume to be true when you are not sure as to why you even believe it to be true.

 

I will attempt to make very brief comments leaving room for future questions.

 

Abram/Melchizedek:

1) Abram gave him a tenth of EVERYTHING. If the tithe is for today as a law and Abram’s encounter with Melchizedek is a standard do we give a tenth of everything or do we debate whether we are to tithe on the net or gross income and yet ignore giving from all we have?

2) Note that this was not a command, but a spontaneous gift on Abram’s part. We also note that it was a onetime gift.

 

Israel:

1) God gave specific rules for taking care of the Levites and priests.

2) The tithe was only one of many other offerings that were to be presented. Do we also today give all the other prescribed offerings commanded of Israel? Estimates vary, but most who have studied this subject believe that the Israelites gave around 30% to 35% to the various offerings annually.

3) The offerings usually included crops or animals, but yet today what is considered the obligatory tithe is cash (or credit card number). Some argue that cash (money) was not really a part of their system back then, but we have a passage that tells us otherwise:

Deu 14:22-29 NIV84  Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.  (23)  Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.  (24)  But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away),  (25)  then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.  (26)  Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.  (27)  And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.  (28)  At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns,  (29)  so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

Money was available, but was not given as the tithe. It was used only to simplify the traveling and then exchanged back for what is the proper tithe according to Scripture.

 

Another verse we again see that what was prescribed for Israel had nothing to do with money:

 

Deu 26:12 NIV84  When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

 

What is the tithe mentioned in Malachi? It too is not talking about money.

 

So, I go back to a previous question. This is not about whether we ought to cheerfully give to the Lord. Nor is it really about amount, for if we use Israel’s standard we ought to be giving in excess of 30% of everything we have. The question is when did it change from crops and animals to money? What, based on Scripture, gives the church the right to demand a tithe of money and proclaim you guilty if you fail? I find no such right or command. Does the church require money to operate? It depends on where you live. Should we be cheerful givers … yes, but does Scripture command us to give a tithe of money? No, it does not.

 

Matthew 23:23:

1) Money was used every day in that society. The Romans had their money and the Jews also had their money. Only the Jewish money was acceptable as an offering at the temple. Yet, Jesus speaks to these about their tithe of spices.

2) These Pharisees still lived under the old order, the Laws pertaining to governing the nation of Israel that included the care of the Levites.

3) We cannot find one supportive verse in the NT that in any way highlights the command of tithing as being applicable to the church. Giving, yes … tithing, no.

 

Conclusion:

Hahaha … If I have to use a conclusion this obviously was not as short as I had hoped :-)

There is no question that we are to be cheerful givers, that we are to support the work of the Lord and those who dedicate their lives to serving Him (i.e. pastors, teachers, etc). We are not commanded to tithe, though one could use the principle as a guideline, but even a tithe is much smaller than what was required of Israel overall. To use the tithe as a way to guilt trip someone into giving is wrong. To use the tithe (money) as a ploy to get people to give by telling them that if they tithe God will open the storehouse of heaven … that is not what Malachi is saying. When we read the NT we see that we are called to sacrificial living (Romans 12:1-2) and this goes far beyond what a tithe ever meant.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Seek on September 15, 2014 at 6:31am

You believe something to be true (i.e. the tithe), yet you really don’t know why you believe it to be true

Actually, I believe it to be true to an extent.  I did believe we were to tithe a tenth regardless but because I've examined it, I no longer believe that.  I don't believe we're set at any amount and I don't believe we're told to give when we cannot afford to.  But I believe we are told to give as we can...whether it is called tithe or offering. (Perhaps that is what gets confusing on the issue). 

I also believe 1 Corinthians 9:14 permits the Pastors to live by the gospel...get their salary/living from preaching.  Just as the Levites received no inheritance, but the tithe was given so they could live.  It was their sustenance.  I also believe pastors should not abuse that as a get rich scheme, as Paul would have rather not have gotten paid but work for his sustenance, but doesn't require it of everyone...it was just what he chose to do. 

The tithe was only one of many other offerings that were to be presented. Do we also today give all the other prescribed offerings commanded of Israel? Estimates vary, but most who have studied this subject believe that the Israelites gave around 30% to 35% to the various offerings annually.

Offerings or sacrifices?  Jesus became the last sacrifice so those were done away with. 

The offerings usually included crops or animals, but yet today what is considered the obligatory tithe is cash (or credit card number). Some argue that cash (money) was not really a part of their system back then, but we have a passage that tells us otherwise:

But crops and animals were the majority of their livelihood then.  We also don't need people to wash our feet today and don't go around on dirt roads in sandals.  Economies, dress, etc....things do change.  The Word doesn't change, but the times change.  So when scripture tells us to shake the dust from our sandals, do we take it literally and take off our tennis shoes and put our sandals on before we shake them?  I know, that's a joke.  But it's also serious.  I see the crops and animals in the same way.  They had money, yes.  I have sandals, yes.  But was money the norm then?  Are sandals the norm today?

Deu 26:12 NIV84  When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

Now this one I'm glad you posted.  It's saying to give the tithe, not JUST to the Levite (the Priest/Pastor), but to those in need as well.  So to me it means we don't have to put all the tithe into a church to claim we've tithed.  We can put it to where there is need.

What, based on Scripture, gives the church the right to demand a tithe of money and proclaim you guilty if you fail?

That's the part that kept me feeling like I was doing wrong...proclaiming me guilty if I fail.  But I don't have a guilt now of it.  I want to be able to give.  I keep praying God will put me in a position to do so some day.  But to proclaim one guilty for not tithing now puts me in mind of the Pharisees putting a yoke on the backs of the people to keep ordinances that even they couldn't keep. 

Hahaha … If I have to use a conclusion this obviously was not as short as I had hoped :-)

Did you really expect it to be?  :-P

There is no question that we are to be cheerful givers, that we are to support the work of the Lord and those who dedicate their lives to serving Him (i.e. pastors, teachers, etc). We are not commanded to tithe, though one could use the principle as a guideline, but even a tithe is much smaller than what was required of Israel overall.

Then it seems we're at the same conclusion but just in different ways of stating it. 

To use the tithe (money) as a ploy to get people to give by telling them that if they tithe God will open the storehouse of heaven

Yeah, that's what had me so messed up.  Yet I know the ones in church saying this weren't those with any interest in the tithe.  They don't work for the church or draw a check, and most of them not even elders in the church.  But they truly believed what they were saying and likely because they'd been taught that all their lives as well. 

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 15, 2014 at 7:03pm

Seek,

I will respond this time to only one portion. I want to point out how so often people are taught something as fact and it is given as a reason for change, but in reality it is in error and used only as an excuse. Here it is ...

You said:

But crops and animals were the majority of their livelihood then.  We also don't need people to wash our feet today and don't go around on dirt roads in sandals.  Economies, dress, etc....things do change.

The Bible disagrees with this, especially the very first sentence. Let's look at Deuteronomy 14 again:

(24)  But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away),  (25)  then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.  (26)  Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.

Silver was clearly a currency at the time (and not the only currency). They were told to sell their crops or cattle if the distance was too far to carry the crop or drive the cattle (animals). Take note that even then, when they get there, they are not going to give the silver, but rather use the silver to by whatever they wanted for the offering .... Clearly there was an economic exchange of silver for crops or cattle and vise-a-versa. Thus, from Deut. 14 we see that the tithe was not about money even though money was currently being used even by the Israelite people. So, now we again come to the question of when did the tithe become all about money? What verse or Scripture leads us to that conclusion? What has happened hear as in our other discussion regarding women in ministry is that people use the culture card to explain away something (i.e. did not use money back then, which isn't true).

Note: my argument is not in favor of the tithe, but rather if one is going to call for a Biblical tithe we need to see what justification they claim for changing the prescription of Scripture regarding the tithe, besides it was a cultural issue.

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Seek on September 16, 2014 at 6:21am

I wasn't saying that crops and animals was the currency, but that it was the majority of their livelihood and that today, the majority is a job that pays money...something intangible such as a job you cannot give a part of.  If you're a farmer, you can give of your crops.  A shepherd, give of your flock.  But if you're a Wall Street banker, what do you give?  This is what I meant by the culture.  This is why in part it is tithing money...because that is what the majority of people have to tithe now.  I don't know anyone in my church that has crops or animals they can tithe.  Though some have a horse, many have cats and dogs, my brother has a couple of goats...there are no sheep or cattle herders and everyone works in an office of a sort and do not obtain their income or living through a farm. 

I think the last verse you posted is more appropriate than the money portion.  So it leads one to ask...what is a "tithe"?  If, as I've always believed, a tithe is something paid to God or the church, why then did tell them to take the "tithe" and trade it for silver and buy whatever they like?  If the tithe is for God and the church, why did God call it a tithe for the people to use on whatever they wanted?

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 16, 2014 at 3:24pm

If the tithe is for God and the church, why did God call it a tithe for the people to use on whatever they wanted?

Because there were various offerings called for in the OT with specific regulations for each. What was originally given has been altered to mean something different today.

Regarding the first paragraph. I think you are missing the point, but am going to drop it.

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Seek on September 16, 2014 at 5:18pm

Here you said various "offerings" and we were talking tithes and that's something I keep trying to figure out...the difference between offerings and tithes. So I did a search and Got Questions has a good answer. What's more, they reference scripture that I'd not seen in answer to the tithing debate:

“But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep” (1 Corinthians 15:20)

I knew He became the "sacrifice", but now I see He was also the first fruits.

http://www.gotquestions.org/tithes-and-offerings.html

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 16, 2014 at 6:47pm

I keep raising the other offerings because in the OT they are interrelated and that plays into this discussion. We cannot pick one, break it out, and ignore the rest.

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