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Women leaders in church in a different light
My question is...
If women are not to lead in church who will? Look around the congregation. How many wives sit alone with unsaved husbands at home?
My pastor pointed this out once. Said marriage and society both suffer because of weak men who don't teach Godliness in their homes.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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I won't argue there. Between the two of us, we should be able to keep him awake indefinitely.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Ok, now let’s go in a different direction.
I have attempted to establish from Scripture what is the proper order of things regarding women in ministry (and it was broadened to include some other hot topics) according to Scripture. From Scripture we also saw that there are 3 direct times where women served in positions of some form of leadership or teaching capacity. Some will view a fourth one being Priscilla, but because she was with her husband in every occurrence we will exclude her from this segment. These three women are Deborah, Huldah and Anna. We will also point out that in the totality of Scripture Debroah is mentioned in 2 chapters (Judges 4 and 5), Hudlah in two verses and Anna in one verse. Hardly enough to build a doctrine on, but there are some principles to learn from as to why these were called upon when they were. In each case their being brought into a leadership position or teaching position did not follow the norm, but was preceded by extraordinary circumstances. Let’s take a look:
Deborah the Judge: She lived in a time when Israel had once again turned their back on God as seen in Judges 4:1:
Jdg 4:1 NIV84 After Ehud died, the Israelites once again did evil in the eyes of the LORD.
She lived in a time where the Israelites repetitively did what seemed right in their own eyes and in a time where the men had fled as seen in Judges 5:6-7:
Jdg 5:6-7 NIV84 "In the days of Shamgar son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the roads were abandoned; travelers took to winding paths. (7) Village life in Israel ceased, ceased until I, Deborah, arose, arose a mother in Israel.There appears to be no godly men to be found and God called on Deborah.
Key note: Israel once again did evil in the eyes of the Lord and all did what seemed right in their own eyes (repetitive problem) and no godly male leader was to be found.
Hudlah the Prophetess: She lived in an era where the Word of God (Scripture) had been hidden away. There was a lack of knowledge and God used her as one of His instruments. This is seen in 2 Kings 22:13 where the hidden scrolls were found and read. The leaders were not godly, for there had been a time where God’s Word had been absent.
Key Thought: A lack of knowledge and again people living according to what they thought was right.
Anna the Prophetess: She lived in a time where religion (the Pharisees) had perverted the truth of God.
Now if we look at these three extraordinary circumstances and boil them down we find 4 basic points.
1) Everyone did evil in the eyes of the Lord (Did what seemed right in their own eyes).
2) There was a lack of knowledge regarding the truth of God’s Word.
3) Religion had perverted God’s truth.
4) A lack of godly men to carry out the work.
If we view these four things as precedence in Scripture that allows for overriding the norm of Scripture we then must ask ourselves the following:
Do any or all of these exist today in the church (not focusing on the world, but the church)?
1) Do we see many rejecting godly wisdom and teaching leading to them doing whatever seems right in their own eyes? (Take note that in the Book of Judges this is God’s proclamation about man. If polled man would have stated that they were doing pretty good).
2) Is there a lack of knowledge regarding Biblical truth?
3) Has religious leaders (supposed religious leaders) perverted the truth of God’s Word today, and in fact over the years?
4) Is there a lack of godly men to stand up and lead the church?
Thus, we can seek to understand whether the church is at the point where a Deborah or Hudlah needs to be raised up by God. Thus, in the absence of these 4 things listed where in Scripture do we find that women leading the church is God’s plan?
I am going to look at all four points briefly and then make a concluding remark.
1) Do we see many rejecting godly wisdom (again from within the church and not focused on the world)? The answer is yes, but to what degree? Is it to the level of God calling a Deborah … I don’t know. What we do know is that the Word of God is under attack within the church. It is being degraded from the Word of God to a word about God. Clear and compelling teachings are being set aside for cultural preference. Yet, this looks a lot like the days of the judges and many today believe everything is pretty good, in fact many actually believe the church is being liberated from archaic views. At this view I laugh and cry at the same time.
2) Is there a lack of knowledge today? Again we need only ask a few questions of the average church attendee to find the answer to this one. You would be surprised at how many do not believe in hell, the Holy Spirit, have little to no knowledge of Biblical accounts found in Scripture. Even fewer know the basic principles for studying Scripture and yet they want to stand and proclaim their view is right when they have not examined Scripture. Most(and yes this is now a rant on this single point) only parrot what someone else told them, and often it is what the large church or TV evangelist said, because we all know (not really) that larger means they must be right. The small church pastor is often viewed today as a failure because of the size of the church he pastor’s. What about Biblical integrity?
3) Has religious leaders (groups) infiltrated the church and perverted the Word of God. The answer is overwhelmingly YES. The liberal movement with its degrading of God’s Word. The Word of Faith movement and its call to a name it and claim it religion. The prosperity teachers who claim you should be rich. The Faith Healers that claim God wants everyone healthy and you just have to have enough faith. The secularization of the church movement (forget the name) that turns the pastor into a CEO. Another movement that turns the pastorate and laity upside down. The teachings of the Catholic Church (No time to cover all that) and those others that some view as Christian who influence people like the Jehovah Witness and Mormons. Is it any wonder, but for the grace of God, that the church (institution) isn’t more messed up than it is. (My heart cries for a simplistic return to the basic message of God’s Word where it means what it says and says what it means.)
4) Is there a lack of godly men today? From everything I pointed out above I would say that the answer is yes. Yet, that is not a new problem. It has been an issue in almost every generation. So, are we at a point where God needs to call out a Deborah or a Hudlah? We know this … His Word will never fail and it will go forward. He can call whomever He wants, but we ought to be cautious regarding those who claim to be called, if for no other reason than those listed in #3.
Concluding thoughts:
We see in Scripture that not many should presume to be teachers and yet many see it as a position of climbing the ladder and becoming someone of importance. Does everyone realize that to be a leader in the church means to be a servant to all who are in the church? I am confident that neither Deborah or Hudlah aspired to a position, but rather responded to a call of God to serve Him.
Thus I leave this topic with the following: Women in ministry leadership positions is not the Biblical norm, but there are exceptions and when these exceptions are present and God calls (not the person’s personal desire, but His call) these ladies need to respond. But, again, this is the exception not the Biblical norm.
I must also add that these are my views. I am TheNET Coordinator and represent AAG in the guidance of this web site, but these views posted here are not to be construed as me speaking for AAG, but for me only.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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(My heart cries for a simplistic return to the basic message of God’s Word where it means what it says and says what it means.)
Amen
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Ok this is more along what I was asking. Because I know what I was told about teaching and yet some churches hold to a strict standard, which is the same as saying those women weren't led by the Spirit.
Teaching would actually have been the last thing I'd do and being that teachers are held to a higher standard I want to be absolutely sure I know what I'm talking about before I'd delve into anything too deeply. Good thing that the class I assisted with was on basics, like how to choose a bible, praying, what is baptism etc.
It certainly is no climbing the ladder for me. I've never even been ambitious in the corporate ladder. I'm more of a prefer to be behind the scenes type person. I work much better if you just give me what you need done, give clear concise directions and let me do it. I hate being a decision maker and would rather defer to someone else more qualified. But I know what the Spirit told me on teaching and I have no doubts in that. You'll probably remember the tale I've posted here so you'll know why I believe this so strongly.
And the start of this was due to consideration of another church until I read their rules and regulations. One of which was women cannot teach.
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What? That's it? I had my computer tuned up, greased my keyboard, cracked my knuckles, brewed a pot of coffee and was prepared for a 10,000 word essay ... and we end with this .... Just kidding :-)
Nice ending and enjoyed the discussion.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Your first mistake was brewing a pot of coffee. Yuck!!!
Whenever I can get my words to match my thoughts things could go a lot quicker. I seriously do take ribbing at work. They constantly look at me like I have two heads cause I will start talking about something like they know what I'm referring to. Another reason teaching would seem to be the farthest thing from me. God's really going to work overtime to perfect His power in my weakness.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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Girl, you'll do the same to me. You tell me about people & situations as if I know these people & what you're talking about. I'll have to come back & say Who is that? What you talking about?
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What? You didn't know who I was talking about? Well whenever I say Kim just remember...she's on your side. It aggravates her. And she's gotta deal with me 5 days a week.
LOL
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What? That's it? I had my computer tuned up, greased my keyboard, cracked my knuckles, brewed a pot of coffee and was prepared for a 10,000 word essay ... and we end with this .... Just kidding :-)
Nice ending and enjoyed the discussion.
Lord Bless,
LT
LOLOLOLOLOLOL, that cracked me up and yes.....I really enjoyed reading the back and forths, very good discussion.
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