All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Women leaders in church in a different light
My question is...
If women are not to lead in church who will? Look around the congregation. How many wives sit alone with unsaved husbands at home?
My pastor pointed this out once. Said marriage and society both suffer because of weak men who don't teach Godliness in their homes.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Colby on
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LT,
You make good points here, which are well worth pondering. Your logic applies well beyond the immediate question regarding what the Bible says about the role of women in the church. It speaks as well, in a broader sense, to other questions of morality and practice where the contemporary culture clashes with God's Word. Hence, the "cultural card" is played to ignore, minimize, or explain away an unpopular Biblical teaching. Ultimately, as you are well aware, how we will answer questions like these turns on how we view the authority and origin of the Bible.
Faith, hope and love,
Colby
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Colby,
Ultimately, as you are well aware, how we will answer questions like these turns on how we view the authority and origin of the Bible.
Yes, IMO most of the disagreements between those who profess to be Christians arises from the view of Scripture and the method of interpretation. I will expound a little on my point for others who may pass thru here reading this.
There are several great divides. I will list the three that I see as most critical.
1) Word of God versus word about God:
There is a monumental difference between viewing the Bible as God's Word, verbally inspired and authoritative versus seeing it as only a historical rendering of God's work as given thru man's POV. If we see it as verbally inspired and authoritative we must respond to it as the rule of God over our life with a desire to submit to its teachings. Not because of fear, but because we recognize this is God's plan for salvation and His plan for holy living that pleases Him. The word about God leaves man in control and seeks to find a few good principles to apply to our life. Thus one seeks to radically change our life and the other simply seeks to adjust our life.
2)Exegesis versus Eisegesis:
Exegesis is seeking to draw out of God's Word exactly what God meant and then appy it to our daily lives. Eisegesis (and IMO is what most are guilty of today) seeks to read into the text what they want it to say. To them the Word of God is to be brought into alignment with the current cultural world view of the individual. Exegesis says we have no right to alter God's Word, but to diligently seek for what He means by it without preconceived bias and then submit accordingly.
3) Allegoric, literal and face value.
Allegoric view reads Scripture in a way that basically every account is a story with a hidden meaning. It does not seek to apply the plain understanding, but always seek for that perceived hidden nugget. Literal view (and there are some variances) read everything as literal. Some are ultra literal, meaning every word is literal without exception. Another view that is a type of literal is face vale. Face value seeks to determine the literary style of the passage and read it accordingly. Is it literal, allegoric, historical, poetic, etc..
My view is ... Word of God ... Exegesis ... Face Value.
I once was engaged in a discussion with another here on AAG. They viewed everything allegoric. I do not doubt their profession of faith, but we could not hold a sensible discussion because to me in most cases "A" meant "A' and to this other person "A' could mean "B and C". We agreed to give up the discussion as it was a waste of time ... we were speaking different languages.
A last thing that is not accounted for above that needs to be mentioned. There are those who for personal gain (financial, fame, or other) manipulate the Scripture with find sounding arguments designed to teach their falsehood. The list out there is growing every day.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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That would be man altering God's Word instead of man being altered by God's Word. We cannot let heart bias lead the way either. God's Word is the final word. Amen
Funny you should mention the hair issue. A young man asked my opinion just today on here about what my beliefs were on it. This is what I believe on that particular subject:
The covering is symbolic, indicating the authority that exists above the woman, yet still under Christ. A further teaching of this verse is that women did prophesy and pray in public worship. This, no doubt, involved edifying, exhorting, and comforting. And apparently this did not constitute a covering.
In Corinth, it was not uncommon for prostitutes to shave their heads and don blonde wigs, thus signifying their availability to the men in the streets.
An unsubmissive woman standing before the congregation is virtually the same as to going out in public improperly dressed (e.g., with her head shaven). Just as no respectable Christian woman would go out in public dressed as a prostitute, it is equally important that she not participate in public worship without proper dress.
We have to look at Scriptures in context with the scriptures surrounding them. We can't just take one without looking at the rest.
In Genesis 1:26–27 it is said that God created man in His own image, “male and female created He them.” The only sense in which the man is uniquely in the image of God is that to him was given dominion over the earth. This was done before the creation of the woman. So, in the same sense, the woman is the glory of the man.
The order of creation also supports Paul’s position. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. She came after. She was made for the man (Gen 2:21–25).
Power signifies the symbol of authority on her head. A further reason is because of the angels. The reference is to the holy angels who elsewhere are spoken of as “worshiping spirits” (Heb 1:4). The central theme of Paul’s thought is submission to the divine order of things. Women should demonstrate the same sense of submission to God in recognizing their true position, and fulfilling its claims, as do the angels who know nothing of insubordination among their ranks. Since the angels have their very existence in the presence of God, they are also present whenever the congregation meets together to worship the Lord (1 Cor 4:9; Eph 3:10; 1 Tim 5:21).
The principle of submission is supported by the order of creation, the principle of mutual dependency is supported by the order of procreation. In Genesis 2, the woman came out of the man. In Genesis 4:1, the man came out of the woman. So have all men since. In the final analysis, all things (are) of God.
If a man have long hair, it is a shame. This is a tough one for me. I love men's long hair personally. I personally don't think it's talking about long hair alone. Nazarenes had long hair then. First, the context: Paul is talking about the differences between the sexes. Have long hair (Gr komaō) means to wear long hair like that of a woman. He is saying, in my belief, that it is shameful for a man to wear his hair in a feminine way. The real issue here is submission to divine authority. Therefore, every aspect of the believer’s life should reflect his obedience and submission to the Lord Jesus Christ and divinely established authority.
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Tammy,
Well said. I especially like the last comment:
The real issue here is submission to divine authority. Therefore, every aspect of the believer’s life should reflect his obedience and submission to the Lord Jesus Christ and divinely established authority.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Me, personally, I have always believed that it applies to everyone at all times.
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Permalink Reply by Mary O on
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Hi Seek, God bless you!
IMO, part of leadership is recognizing that you don't do it all yourself. My Gary (husband) is that kind of person. He's the leader of our house, but he'll be the first to admit he needs a wife. He needs me. That makes me feel important. It pleases me to be needed by my husband. When we pray, we are very strong.
We had a miracle this weekend. It's a miracle to us. Our car battery died, and Gary was struggling to loosen the old battery. Gary couldn't find the right gizmo to loosen the bolts that held the battery. I prayed and asked God to show Gary which gizmo to use to loosen the battery. "God, please show him where that tool is in Jesus' name." Gary needed metric tools which he has. Sure enough, he found the right-sized tool. Then he couldn't get the bolts to turn. I continued to pray for him. The bolts turned. Then there's a piece that must be unsnapped. It drapes over the battery and also holds it in place. Then he had to get it all back together and I prayed. I didn't think he could hear me pray.
After the job was done, Gary said when I prayed he looked down and found the tool he needed on the floor. Must have dropped it and didn't realize it. I thought he was all focused on the job, but Gary heard me praying. God was honoring all those prayers even if I don't remember what the name of the tool is. Gary thought he wouldn't have gotten the job done without my prayers. He still leads our house, but he knows
Is it really about who is leading or is it about being needed?
The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" (1 Corinthians 12:21)
From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. (Ephesians 4:16)
Agape Love,
Mary
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Actually Mary, to me it's about all the divisiveness on scripture. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees because they got so caught up enforcing laws even they didn't keep. In my church they allow for women preaching, in others they say we can't allow that but we allow them to teach and speak. And one says one's wrong the other says the others wrong. Same with tithing. One says tithe another doesn't. How can everyone be reading the same scripture and reaching different conclusions? It makes no sense to me. We're so far away from teaching the Gospel, it's no wonder so many people have trouble knowing if God really loves them or not. One will down you if you don't tithe and make you think you're cheating God, another says God forbids women to preach so if a woman pastor brings you to salvation or you enjoy her sermons, you feel you're not right with God since you should hate what He hates and he hates women preaching.
It's just all the little rules and regulations and everyone can put scripture in a light that shows just about anything they want. Take that guy in the Jesus Second Coming video I posted. He so badly slaughters the Word that it's so transparent. But how about all the subtle differences between the Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, etc. etc.?
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I'm sorry Seek. I'm on a different wavelength. I don't know why churches vary.
I've never had my husband say that I can't teach. Maybe I can't answer the question very well. I have had men in the church say that I couldn't teach or pray or whatever. My response was to quietly pray and ask God to talk to that person. I've seen evidence that God told that person to step aside.
If you are feeling frustrated but have an urge to teach, maybe you could get involved with a women or children's fellowship. If you can teach Bible to children, you can teach anyone. I love teaching children. You can do special projects or activities, it's so much fun.
Love,
Mary
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Sorry Mary, but i didn't really make it clear. It's not an issue in my church but i had wondered on another church i had visited to attend a special seminar wondering if i was being led there because of a couple things that seemed to perhaps point to it. Yet after reading their welcome packet, I'm convinced this is not a leading of the Spirit as I know I am to teach. I have actually taught as a backup a few times. But when you're told by the Spirit that you will do something you have no desire to do then begin to develop a desire that grows for no apparent reason and a door that didn't exist is suddenly there and even smacks you in the face...It's like you seeing evidence of God telling your opposition to step aside.
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We're on the same side, God's side. The situation I'm thinking of, the fellow just didn't have the experience I had in discerning of spirits. It just happened the most qualified person in the room at that time was a woman. I can't really erase my past to accommodate his feelings. I've been casting out demons since I was a kid, and I guess I'm just wired differently than most people. Many Christians never see or hear demons. Sometimes I wish I was among them.
I didn't jump in because as far as I could see he was doing his best. I can pray and be supportive. I don't think it's Godly to walk up and say..."Excuse me, step aside. I'll handle this." The demons were lying to him, and he wasn't catching it. I was pretty sure God was telling me to handle the situation. So I asked God to tell him I'm supposed to take care of it. Sure enough. He turned to me and said..."Do whatever God is telling you to do."
Love,
Mary
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I think that's so cool! Not the demons part. I don't think I want to be face-to-face with any of those. But that he got the message straight from God right at that moment.
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Seek, there are Christian women doing really powerful things. I can teach, but when the chips are down, God will probably ignite my ministry. Who gets asked to bind the wounds when people fall and get hurt? If someone is blocking the teaching so that it doesn't get through, like nobody can hear the Word of God for the ruckus, who gets asked to tell the demon to put a sock in it? There are women who make sure the Word of God gets through so people can hear it. There's a lot for us to do.
I've actually had people laugh (women too) because I'm just an average woman a little older than I care to admit. They'd never guess that I pull out my sword and jump into the heat of spiritual battle.
First to get asked well what do you think your ministry is? And then I say well I took this test designed to identify ministries and strengths and it indicated apostle/prophet. I scored about 50/50. Then the laughter begins. It wasn't their ministry to give anyway, it was God's to give. Just food for thought.
Love,
Mary
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