Hebrews 6:4 - 6:6

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 13, 2014 at 6:24am

I understand the principle point you are making using these two examples and agree - "Many Christians claim to be free but aren't." For clarity regarding a different point I want to take a second and differentiate between those two views, for they make your case, but are not in harmony with each other (lest I misunderstand and thus misrepresent Stanley and the other).

Stanley, I am confident, is presenting that we are in this situation because of our personal guilt and need to be freed by engaging in God's Word and letting Him lead us out. The other person views our problems (again, as I read it and know a little about that side of teaching) as being caused by these demons, which are external forces and not our fault. We would be good if we can only get rid of the demons. No, man is fallen and needs God's transforming work within him (Romans 12:1-2). We are guilty and but for God we would have no desire to seek Him or follow Him.

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Seek on July 13, 2014 at 8:25pm

Actually, Stanley and the other guy (need to find that article again) were talking both of personal guilt and/or sin areas we aren't willing to let go of, as well as what can cause us to have areas that need broken off or healed due to circumstances we may have experienced when younger. Stanley talks about it like a brainwashing of sorts and we need to push the garbage out that we were taught by filling our minds with truth and allow our minds to be transformed. The other guy, rather than saying brainwashing, attributes it to spirits that have attached to us. Both however say you don't get free on one prayer but on continuing in the Word. And neither said we're not to blame. Regardless of what led to our mindset, we have to want it to change and repent of our ways and thoughts.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on July 13, 2014 at 8:36pm

Found it in my history: http://www.moresureword.com/WhyLong.htm

Here's one small part that may put it in better perspective. The part I've bolded is not really different in what Stanley says. Both are speaking of mindsets, of being deceived in our thoughts.

In reality, the demons are layered in like the layers of an onion. The outer layers come out easier. Demons are deceivers. The stronger ones may not manifest when the weaker demons are being cast out. The demons find rest in their position of control within the believer. They will work any deception to keep believers in bondage and prevent their effective warfare against the devil’s kingdom. Deliverance ministers, and those who seek deliverance, must be as determined and persistent as the demons.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 13, 2014 at 8:57pm

You will find similarities in various types of teachings. In such cases it is the differences that tell the story. A mind set is not the same thing as a literal demon. Without knowing the specifics of one's teaching there is some speculation on my part, but again there is a thread that is common in most demonic focused ministries. There is an understanding of personal guilt, but in that it is the guilt that allowed the demon in and that the person would be free if not but for the demon.  Whereas the Scripture speaks to the child of God needing mind renewal (Rom. 12:1-2) and not demon exorcism.

I also reject the idea that a child of God who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is also indwelt by demons. There is a great difference between possession and oppression.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on July 13, 2014 at 9:47pm

I gather from how he speaks that demonic "oppression" is what he's speaking of.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on July 15, 2014 at 6:10am

Amanda brought up to me a part of this guy's article that does seem to suggest he may be referring to demons within.  Other parts seem to be referring to oppression.  However, my point was not on the demonic aspect but on the message he and Stanley (from two different methods of arriving at it) were giving.  That message being that being set free from bondage is something God has to do and sometimes takes awhile.  To me that also seems to go in hand with those who were "enlightened"

Merriam-Webster defines enlightened as: 

1:  freed from ignorance and misinformation;
2:  based on full comprehension of the problems involved;

In that, I don't believe everyone is fully enlightened for awhile.  We may be saved and walking in grace and made righteous, yet not have full comprehension until God has completely opened our eyes.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 15, 2014 at 2:43pm

Seek,

I understood that you were not focused on that (even commented regarding that), but because it was included I felt it important to clarify for those who read this site. That particular subject tends to draw attention and there are many that profess to minister in the demonic realm who are from misguided to out right dangerous in their teaching and practice. Thus a word of caution was my only intent.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Seek on July 15, 2014 at 9:13pm

I haven't really come to a complete conclusion to what I believe, whether demons or evil spiris, or strongholds and mindsets. For now I feel it's a mixture. I feel like our minds are like computers filled with garbage and needing reprogrammed. But maybe we sometimes get a virus....Satan oppressing us to keep us there. Maybe it can even be demonic in that that those that hurt us left us bound up in these hard to break areas.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 16, 2014 at 3:31am

IMO the mind is the greatest battlefield we will ever engage in.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Amanda on July 16, 2014 at 9:18am

Seek,

Here's another good sermon, entitled Recover Your True Identity by Dr. Michael Youssef.

http://www.lightsource.com/ministry/leading-the-way/video-player/re...

It fits well with the one by Dr. Charles Stanley. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6chlagmSsf0&feature=youtube_gdat...


Stanley states that God's will is to free us from whatever hinders His will and purpose and plan for our lives, that God is willing to dig as deep in our lives and deal with things that have been there since as far back as when we were kids. People can be in bondage and not even recognize it as bondage. 

The lies we believe, also, can keep us from knowing our true identity which is found in Jesus. 

Yes, God permits us to battle the deceptions of Satan and demons, the lies. 

Our war isn't against flesh and blood. In John 18:36, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

As my dear friend, Rita Cullimore (now gone to be with the Lord), once told me, "We all have evil spirits harass us. You are not the exception. The point is having the strength to tell him to go take a flying leap.....  We all need to develop that ability and you will as we go along."

There's a difference between a demon being within from just believing a lie that one on the outside has whispered into your ear and letting that lie take root and grow in your mind or heart. 

It's often thought that oppression is permitted by God as discipline for sin to make one repent, but as you reminded me this morning, God removed the hedge of protection from around Job, giving Satan access, even though Job was righteous. 

Job lived before the cross, and many teach that the authority given to us in Christ is more than enough to fight the spiritual battle. 

I certainly believe the devil deceives and through the deception, has power to kill, steal, and destroy. God permits it. 

I think mind renewing is the answer -- replacing lies with truth and being empowered to live accordingly. God has to give both the light and the power.

I know that people can learn and modify their behavior, but I don't know if that's really true mind renewal or truly the process of sanctification. I'm still confused about mind renewing and sanctification.

It's difficult for me to imagine what I've been going through is just discipline for sin and God trying to make me repent because I've already repented many times and asked God to forgive me and help me live for Him. 

But part of the way I view God is like the demanding, judgmental way my parents were growing up. I never could please them or make them happy. So ...

Permalink Reply by Seek on July 16, 2014 at 6:31pm

There's a difference between a demon being within from just believing a lie that one on the outside has whispered into your ear and letting that lie take root and grow in your mind or heart.

Some had that root take hold and grow even before being old enough to make informed decisions. Now that it's there it needs healing. It's why God is near to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit. It's why no matter how down on himself Gideon was, God still stood beside him and built up his courage. And he didn't do it overnight. Peter didn't become so bold overnight either. He walked with God in the flesh and still cowered in fear. And nothing suggested that Peter grew up in abuse, criticism, molestation, rape, etc.

There was one however who lived in fear because he'd had a rough life. Mephibosheth became lame as a child and then lost his whole family and his inheritance. He had nothing. He had no reason to believe anything good would ever happen to him. I wonder how many meals he ate at David's table before the inner doubt and mistrust left him completely.

But part of the way I view God is like the demanding, judgmental way my parents were growing up. I never could please them or make them happy.

It may be God is wanting you to come to the point where that bondage finally breaks off...that you'll believing in your heart and not just your head that He's not anything like your parents.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on July 16, 2014 at 8:54pm

To your last paragraph, I believe my heart and spirit know it, but it's my mind and flesh that wrestle, reason, and rationalize it. With God, for me it's always been trying to please Him and meet His approval, just like in all my relationships, even as a wife and mom. 

Trying to heal emotionally and spiritually is difficult because we're supposed to put the needs of others before our own needs. It looks selfish and feels selfish, too. 

I have so many confused spiritual understandings. It seems very selfish to me to stop "doing" and just rest in learning who I am in Christ and growing in knowledge of God's love for me apart from works. But when you've had the mindset for most of your life that God just loves you because you serve Him, then trusting that God could love you, or does love you, in spite of what you do, that you could be like Mary and sit at His feet, instead of Martha rushing around, and still find favor in God's eyes, sounds very irrational and unreasonable. I've been legalistic, but I've seen God as legalistic, too, with a list of what to do and what not do.

I can't say how long it will take me to recover. Longer than 4 years.

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