Hebrews 6:4 - 6:6

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Permalink Reply by Seek on July 16, 2014 at 9:10pm

Moses spent 40 years in the wilderness tending sheep as God was molding him to lead another flock even when he was more or less hiding from the world. I'm sure he didn't realize he was being trained.

Permalink Reply by ribbon on July 3, 2014 at 12:33am

seek I am nit sure why I didn't see these verses you posted in your comment before I replied to you the first time.

I don't know the story about Elijah... I don't know what people he was talking to. Were they people who severed the Lord but then later were unsure? Or had  they yet to serve/ follow Him during that time? Baal, I am thinking that is a demon or some dort of idle?   He will heal their waywardness and love them freely.. Waywardness , I will have to look up that word. Were these Gods people and then walked away and dissed Him? 

Jeremiah 3:21-22 A cry is heard on the barren heights, the weeping and pleading of the people of Israel, because they have perverted their ways and have forgotten the LORD their God. 22 "Return, faithless people; I will cure you of backsliding." "Yes, we will come to you, for you are the LORD our God.

The Jeremiah verses , I think I understand. Do you think this is similar to hating God and deliberately doing things against Him? To me its saying that  they just "forgot" about God.   Thank you for posting these verses, I will try to learn them. I know the bible doesnt contradict itself but sometimes it sure seems like it does. Thanks again ...  I like the part I will cure you of backsliding. :-)

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Permalink Reply by Seek on July 3, 2014 at 3:37am

This is why some claim the Bible contradicts itself. It doesn't. It's just that their eyes are not open to the truth. They have ears but do not hear.

As Scribe pointed out, Hebrews in context is speaking of going back to their old ways of following the OT traditions...One being sacrifices for sins when Jesus was the final sacrifice.

Here's another. A verse I had trouble with was James 1:6-8. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.

This is a verse I had thrown at me when I just kept seeing my life falling apart and wondered if God was listening to me that maybe I wasn't truly repentant and therefore not saved. Or perhaps I was being punished for something I was doing wrong without knowing the wrong I did. Or maybe I was under a generational curse. I remembered those who were commended for their faith yet never saw the promises and thought maybe I will not see them til I reach heaven. I got angry with God thinking He was punishing me. Because I wasn't completely enlightened. I was learning scripture but meaning hadn't taken root. I had to abide/remain in Him/His Word and the truth sets us free.

I have an article on my site on this.

The term is again found in James 4:8-10 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain. The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

This is referring to those who are living carnally. They are serving two masters, God and mammon. They are fighting, lusting, warring, etc. They're not asking God for the things of God, for wisdom, such as is the topic in James 1 above. They're service is to satan and living through the flesh and not the Spirit. They need to draw near to God. And the last two verses explain what usually happens, the person is afflicted, causing them to mourn and become more and more humbled. They are being tried in the fire to bring out more Godly qualities.

Now another may say this is bunk. They may stand by their conviction that God won't help you if you doubt. To that I give two points...

1. These are the same people who say that satan would take us out at birth if not for God. So God was doing something for us before we even believed.

2. When I thought maybe I wasn't saved or was cursed I thought that nothing in my life would ever change. I was actually even prone to being mad at God for things a couple of times. Well according to James then, I would never receive anything from God.

And yet there were many times I received unexpected and unexplainable financial help when I saw no way to meet my expenses. So while I was being told that I was double minded so God wouldn't help, God was helping. These same people won't have an answer to that maybe because it's what they always believed, or were taught, that verse meant and aren't studying it and praying over it as I had done because I really wanted to know how to overcome this double mindedness they were saying I had.

I had to take a good look and see everything God had been doing. Things i took for granted. No matter how small and insignificant, we need to reinforce those moments in our mind and realize that God has been doing something in our lives and that our doubts are no different than the father who cried "Lord I believe, help my unbelief." Recall too that Jesus helped him.

There are many other verses that can be taken out of context. Either out of context to the chapter or to the whole of scripture. And the more we abide in His Word the more our eyes are opened. It's a simple concept when you think of it. You can read a thing and not fully grasp it's meaning. Then read a new thing later while having forgotten or overlooked the first thing. But the more you read both and study the more you remember and recall a previous verse that said more on what you're now reading. The better you are able to put 2 and 2 together.

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on July 3, 2014 at 1:13pm

Janie, I haven't read all of the replies so others may have already covered what I'm about to share. I've been reading on this for 2 days & can only relate what I've read. I cannot say with 100% certainty that I have the correct interpretation but this is what I've found. 

For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,—This is speaking of the Hebrews who had been influenced by the power of the gospel but had not done more than make a profession of faith, and were inclined to return to Judaism which remained very strong among the people. It's speaking of one who was drawn to Christianity without being born again and becoming possessed of eternal life. To be enlightened comes short of conversion. To taste of the heavenly gift is far short of receiving it in its fullness. To be a partaker of the Holy Spirit is not becoming indwelt by Him through faith in Christ.

6:5   and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,  Hebrews who had never actually obeyed the word of God in the gospel and been saved. They could taste the word and could experience the powers of a future age but not ingest it & not becoming children of God.

6:6   and then fell away,-Falling back to Judaism.

it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.—that was the great sin of which the nation had been guilty. Judaism was to identify themselves with those who had crucified the Son of God. There was no neutral ground. It must either be a case of definite reception of Christ with its evidential effects, or that of being again guilty of the one great damning sin here mentioned. For such a procedure there was no possibility of another renewal to repentance. There was no means of restoring the soul. A possible alternate rendering to “seeing” is “the while”.

6:7   For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God:—this natural illustration sets forth the case of those who had received the Son of God by faith, responding to the work of the Holy Spirit and bringing forth spiritual fruit as evidence thereof.

6:8   but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected, and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.—indicating the state where there was no new life, nothing in reality but the flesh, the old nature, producing thorns and briars as before. That the ground is “nigh unto a curse” suggests that the owner has waited long to see what its possibilities are, without actually passing his execration upon it. Finding out its true condition, however, he consigns it to its doom.

So it was with those who decided to return to Judaism. 

Here is another view that I read:

This section includes an argument concerning the impossibility of restoring an apostate to repentance (6:4–6) and a supporting illustration in which a well-watered field that bears thorns and thistles is subjected to fire (6:7–8).

(a) The description in 6:4–5 assumes that God is the giver of manifold blessings. The verb “enlightened”  shows that God is the giver of enlightenment (cf. 10:32). Since human beings cannot enter heaven on their own (Deut 30:12; Rom 10:6), an encounter with heavenly reality (Heb 6:4b) can only be a gift from God. The Spirit of which the listeners partake is God’s Spirit (6:4c), whose coming was accompanied by signs of God’s power (2:3–4). The message they received was the word of God (6:5a), and the powers they encountered were from the age to come (6:5b; 2:4–5), which can only be experienced when God grants it. Rather than saying that listeners have “received” something, the author says that they have “tasted” these gifts (6:4–5), which involves personal contact, just as becoming a “partaker” of the Spirit (6:4c) means receiving the Spirit into oneself. 

(b) People who have been blessed may “fall away” (6:6a) by turning away from God’s light, from the heavenly gift and the Holy Spirit, from the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. In this passage, rejection does not stem from ignorance since the “enlightened” have, by definition, come to knowledge of the truth (10:26). It also goes beyond drift, neglect, or sluggishness (2:1, 3; 5:11; 6:12) to a repudiation of what God has done. The author offers no clear criteria by which a person can determine when this has happened, but assumes that God must discern when a person has ended a relationship with him.

The author does not explain why anyone who received gifts from God would reject them, but some things may be inferred. Listeners live in a situation in which the power of God and the power of sin are both at work. They have tasted the powers of the age to come (6:5), but have not entered the city that is to come (13:14), and until they do they will struggle with sin (12:1, 4). Like Moses’ generation, the listeners have embarked on a journey of faith that began when they received God’s saving message and will end when they enter God’s promised rest. The way is not easy and everyone is tested (2:18; 4:15), so that people continue only if they trust in God’s promises, even when appearances seem to contradict them. Those who trust appearances that deny God’s promises will act in unbelief. According to Hebrews it is the unbelieving heart, hardened by sin, that moves people to turn away from God (3:12–13; see §10 COMMENT b).

(c) It is impossible that those who have fallen away should be restored to repentance (6:4a [6:6a Gk]). The NOTE on 6:4a concluded that this verse deals with God’s refusal to restore a person to repentance. According to Hebrews, one reason that God will not restore apostates is that they “crucify the Son of God to themselves” (6:6b), that is, they put to death their relationship with Christ. Since God initiates relationships by bringing people to repentance, God presumably could reinstate the relationship by bringing them to repentance again if he chose to do so. Yet Hebrews assumes that what God would offer the apostates is what they rejected: the Spirit, His word, and enlightenment (6:4–5). By refusing to restore apostates, God permits their decision to stand; He allows them to terminate the relationship. This corresponds to the way that God accepted the wilderness generation’s refusal to enter the land, allowing them to die in the wilderness.

A second reason for God not to restore apostates is that they “make a spectacle” of his Son (6:6c). When apostates break off their relationship with Christ, they not only show their own contempt for Him (cf. 10:29) but make Him contemptible in the eyes of others. When Jesus was crucified, His adversaries derided Him. Just as crucifixion was designed to deter others from crime (NOTE on 6:6), crucifixion of a person’s relationship with Christ could deter others from faith and move them to show contempt for the Christ who was rejected.

The illustration in 6:7–8 reinforces the claims made in 6:4–6. Familiar imagery added strength to the argument because ideas that were commonly accepted were difficult for listeners to reject when applied to their situation. The elements in the illustration can be correlated with those in the previous section:

(a) Those who have tasted the heavenly gift and the goodness of God’s word are like cultivated land that drinks in the rain (6:7a). Rain comes from heaven, like the Spirit and the powers of the age to come. Just as barren land must wait for rain to fall upon it from the sky, people must wait for God to shower heavenly graces upon them. Comparing people to fields upon which the rain has come repeatedly indicates that they have not lacked any divine gift, but have amply received good things from God.

(b) Those who fall away (6:6a) in spite of the gifts they receive from God are like a well-watered field that produces thorns and thistles (6:8). The idea was used by Isaiah, who compared Israel to a vineyard whose owner “dug it and cleared it of stones, and planted it with choice vines” (Isa 5:2). He expected the field to yield grapes, but it produced “wild grapes” or “thorns”. Therefore, when the prophet asks what more the owner could do for the vineyard, the obvious answer is “nothing”; the unwanted produce is not due to the landowner’s neglect, but to something within the land itself (Isa 5:5–7). The same idea is evident in Heb 6:7–8. The author assumes that if land has been cultivated and watered well, it should produce useful fruit, and if it yields the briar of apostasy, the responsibility lies with the land or person rather than with God.

(c) Its end is to be burned (6:8b). Sending more rain upon land that is infested with thorns and thistles would not improve the situation, but make unwanted growth proliferate. A different kind of measure is needed, and a common pattern in antiquity was to burn away the unwanted growth. Hebrews applies the practice to those who have tasted God’s heavenly gifts only to apostatize. The author argues that if God has given them heavenly gifts and they respond negatively, showering them with more grace would encourage sin in the way that rain helps weeds flourish. Like a farmer contending with thorn-infested ground, God can be expected to bring fiery judgment upon sinners (10:27; 12:29).

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on July 3, 2014 at 1:15pm

ROFL. Longest reply in my history.

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Permalink Reply by Mischelle on July 3, 2014 at 1:34pm

Oh my word Mater! That's a book! Love ya!

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on July 3, 2014 at 2:00pm

lololol Yea it is

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Permalink Reply by Seek on July 3, 2014 at 3:49pm

That was even longer than mine!

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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on July 3, 2014 at 6:29pm

You go, Tammy!!!  This was good and I love to see these from you...I thank you for this.

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on July 3, 2014 at 8:37pm

There for a minute I thought I was writing a novel. You outta see my book on the Catholic religion. It's becoming a series.

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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on July 4, 2014 at 10:22am

Hmmnnn?  Perhaps that is something you should look into?  

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on July 4, 2014 at 12:04pm

There's so much here on this topic to consider. I want to take a stab at some of it.

I believe that apostasy and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit aren't the same thing and apostasy can be forgiven. I believe blasphemy of the Spirit is to be interpreted in the context where Jesus mentions it. Mark 3:22-30 and Matthew 12:22-37. There, He is accused of having a demon when casting out demons and he tells them a tree is known by its fruit. It is committed when one says Jesus did miracles the way they accused Him of doing them, instead of attributing the miracles He did to the power of the Holy Spirit. All manner of sin will be forgiven except the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That must mean God will lead some people back from apostasy IMO. 

I believe those who are enlightened but not born again can fall away as a disciple of Jesus and choose to remain in darkness because one can be a disciple without being born again. The word disciple means student. To say they can never repent goes against other scriptures that say God will forgive even the worst sinner and that all manner of sin will be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 

In the OT God forgave apostasy and that was before people could experience being born again, so how can Hebrews 6 be talking about people who didn't fully experience new birth when they can still be forgiven for their rejection of Christ? Romans 2:4 speaks of God's kindness, forbearance, and patience and states God's kindness is intended to lead to repentance.

I see that these verses in Hebrews 6 are speaking of the born again and are saying what would be the case if it were possible that the saved could fall away, and that case would be that someone would need to become born again, again, and it's saying that a person becoming born again a second time would be that they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. It just takes once to repent unto salvation.

So, my POV (not just an opinion but my biblical view based on Scripture) is that the new birth is sufficient the first time it is given to fully save a man or a woman, settling their eternal destiny once and for all as being one of eternal life. 

I think the lost don't backslide. They are lost. You have to have a new position from which to backslide, so, only the saved can backslide. The lost remain lost no matter how much they sin. 

Some believe the saved can backslide and become lost again, and if Hebrews 6 is interpreted in this way, then once the spiritually alive become spiritually dead again, then one must also interpret Hebrews 6 as saying there's no more hope for that person. I used to believe that way, but now I believe in eternal security. Jesus will always go after true believers who are saved, who backslide, and restore them -- because they are "saved." If someone really isn't saved, then the person hasn't backslid because the lost are never spiritually alive but remain spiritually dead until they experience being born again.

I want to end by saying that whichever way someone believes, whether one believes salvation can be lost or believes the born again are eternally secure, I don't believe it necessarily means one isn't saved just because of their position on this issue. It's not essential, nor is it a sin IMO to believe one way or the other about it.

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