Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by thewatchman on February 21, 2014 at 9:40pm

Chip, 

Do you belive that someone can lose salvation....or that we are good?

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 22, 2014 at 4:36am

No one is good but God.

Permalink Reply by Tammy on February 22, 2014 at 12:30pm

I think the question here is more like Does Jesus take back His gift of salvation once He has given it to you?

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 22, 2014 at 4:46am

Here the problem and why you cannot have assurance that you are saved ... you are still hoping you will be saved someday if you make it all the way to the end and work really hard at falling His commands. Whereas the Bible proclaims that we "are " saved and this is by grace through faith and not of works. The Bible describes salvation in three tenses ... past, present and future.

Past: In the phase we experience justification and regeneration. This is the moment of conversion where God transforms us giving us a new heart as well as coming to live within us. He takes our sins and applies them to Jesus and covers them under the blood. We are literally changed and become a new creature (creation), we move from dead to alive. We become a child of God. All of this is His work in us. We receive Jesus' holiness and righteousness.

Present: This phase is seen as the sanctification phase and is a lifelong journey once we have been justified and regenerated. In this phase the Holy Spirit convicts us, works in and on us and continues to transform us.

Future: Glorification phase is the time when we receive the new body and the full salvation process is completed and experienced in whole.

Salvation is from Him and through Him. Again, we live for Him not because we fear loss of the gift, but because we love Him. In your process you have to always fear the loss of the gift, which means it is not a gift, you can never know if you are really saved ... have you really lived by His commandments? Have you kept everyone flawlessly? For God says we are to be perfect like the heavenly Father, that is the standard. This perfection in us is only possible by the work and power of Jesus.

Permalink Reply by ribbon on March 5, 2014 at 1:38pm

Matthew 24:13

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The above verse has always mafe me think or :know that I would never have a chance even if I were serving God.  I thought this verse was talking about when the things talked about in revelations the end times.... that onkly the ones who were strong enough in the Lord would make it. I never had that kind of strenghth,

Permalink Reply by thewatchman on March 5, 2014 at 6:02pm

This is a good verse and a Truth.  

I remember in the story of the builders upon the right/wrong foundation...which was stated in regards to obedience to God.

He says in that parable about those who build on sand and a storm comes [referring to the trials/troubles] and how their house was destroyed.

Jesus was stating that we must be careful as to what we lay as our foundation, if we fail to build on the right foundation...it will crumble.  Hear His Words and do them.

Matthew 7: 24-27

The Wise and Foolish Builders

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

So then we go to the verse that you posted 

 Matthew 24:13

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

If you believe God and trust God to His promises you have the strength.  Let me put it another way, when a trial comes along and strikes you, what happens?  Are you prepared for it?  If you had time to prepare for it would you think that you would be strong enough to endure it?  

God says that He will supply everything we need. Do you believe that? 

In Revelation 21:8 it says:  

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

In alot of the other versions is says cowards instead of "the fearful".  

You can have that kind of strength through God.

Permalink Reply by ribbon on March 5, 2014 at 9:20pm

Thank you for ecplaining some about Mathew verse..:)

Permalink Reply by thewatchman on March 7, 2014 at 6:39pm

I don't think I described it very well at all.  I do believe tho, that only those who do endure unto the end will be saved.  

Many don't believe this.  Many have a...how can I put it...kind of weird belief that no matter what you do, i.e. sin wise, that you will be fine and do not in any way need to be concerned with salvation, that there is nothing you can or cannot do that will change that.  I happen to disagree with that.  

Endure means 

Definition of endure (v)

Bing Dictionary

• en·dure
• [ in dóor ]

1. bear hardship: to experience exertion, pain, or hardship without giving up
2. tolerate disagreeable things: to tolerate or accept somebody or something that is extremely disagreeable
3. survive: to last or survive over a period of time, especially when faced with difficulties

I think it was Billy Sunday that said Christianity is a sweaty affair.  I agree wholeheartedly with Him.  

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 22, 2014 at 4:50am

The assurance of Faith is based completely on your walk with God,

That statement is in error. If you were an Israelite attempting to stay in the promise land which had promises that were conditional you might could make a case, but we are not. Our assurance of salvation cannot be based on our walk, but only on Him. Our walk follows what Jesus has done in us.

based completely on your walk with God,

So you believe that God will judge you based on your walk and if you are good enough He will let you into heaven? This view denigrates the work and blood of Jesus.

Permalink Reply by thewatchman on February 22, 2014 at 7:23am

Now dear reader, you, too, may be quite sure that your faith in Christ is true “gold,” and yet, after all, be mistaken. The human heart is dreadfully deceitful (Jer. 17:9). God’s Word plainly warns us that “There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness” (Prov. 30:12). Do you ask (O that you may, in deep earnestness and sincerity), How can I be sure that my faith is a genuine and saving one? The answer is, Test it. Make certain that it is the, “faith of God’s elect” (Titus 1:1). Ascertain whether or not your faith is accompanied with those fruits which are inseparable from a God-given and Spirit-wrought faith.

Probably many are ready to say, There is no need for me to be put to any such trouble; I know that my faith is a saving one, for I am resting on the finished work of Christ. But dear friend, it is foolish to talk like that. God Himself bids His people to make their “calling and election sure” (2 Peter 1:10). Is that a needless exhortation? O pit not your vain confidence against Divine wisdom. It is Satan who is striving so hard to keep many from this very task, lest they discover that their house is built on sand. There is hope for one who discovers his illusion, but there is none for those who go on believing the Devil’s lie, and rest content with the very real but false peace which he gives to so many of his poor victims.

God Himself has supplied us with tests, and we are mad if we do not avail ourselves of them, and honestly measure ourselves by them. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe (more intelligently) on the name of the Son of God” (1 John 5:13). The Holy Spirit Himself moved one of His servants to write a whole Epistle to instruct as how we might know whether or not we have eternal life. Does that look as though the question may be determined and settled as easily as so many present-day preachers and writers represent it? If nothing more than a firm persuasion of the truth of John 3:16 or 5:24 be needed to assure me of my salvation, then why did God give a whole Epistle to instruct us on this subject?

Let the really concerned soul read slowly and thoughtfully through this first Epistle of John, and let him duly observe that not once in its five chapters are we told, “We know that we have passed from death unto life because we are resting on the finished work of Christ.” The total absence of such a statement ought, surely, to convince us that something must be radically wrong with so much of the popular teaching of the day on this subject. But not only is there no such declaration made in this Epistle, the very first passage which contains the familiar “we know” is quite the reverse of what is now being so widely advocated as the ground of Christian assurance. “And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3). Is not that plain enough? A godly life is the first proof that I am a child of God.

But let us observe the solemn declaration that immediately follows. “He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:4). Do these words anger you? We trust not: they are God’s, not ours. Do you refuse to read any more of this article? That would be a bad sign—an honest heart does not fear the light. A sincere soul is willing to be searched by the Truth. If you are unable to endure now the feeble probing of one of His servants, how will it fare in a soon-coming day when the Lord Himself shall search you through and through? O dear friend, give your poor soul a fair chance, be willing to ascertain whether your faith is real wheat, or only chaff. If it proves to be the latter, there is still time for you to humble yourself before God and cry unto Him to give you saving faith. But in that Day it will be too late!

“He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:4). How plain and pointed is that language! How awful its clear intimation! Do you not see, dear reader, this verse plainly implies that there are those who claim to know Christ, and yet are liars? The father of lies has deceived them, and he is doing everything in his power to keep them from being undeceived. That is why the unregenerate reader finds this article so unpalatable, and wishes to turn from it. O resist this inclination, we beseech you. God has given us this very verse by which we may measure ourselves, and discover whether or not our “assurance of salvation” will stand the test of His Holy Word. Then act not like the silly ostrich, which buries his head in the sand, rather than face his danger.

Let us quote one more verse from this first “we know” passage in John’s Epistle: “But whoso keepeth His Word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him” (1 John 2:5). This stands in sharp contrast from the preceding verse. The Apostle was here moved to set before us some clear Scriptural evidences of spiritual faith and love, within constitute the vital difference between sheep and goats. In verse 4 it is the empty professor who says, “I know Christ as my personal Saviour.” He has a theoretical, but not a vital knowledge of Him. He boasts that he is resting on Christ’s finished work, and is confident that he is saved: but keeps not His commandments. He is still a self-pleaser. Like Solomon’s sluggard, he is “wiser in his own conceits than seven men that can render a reason” (Prov. 26:16). He talks boldly, but walks carelessly.

In verse 5 it is the genuine Christian who is in view. He does not say, “I know Him,” instead, he proves it. The Apostle is not here presenting Christ as the immediate Object of faith, but is describing him who has savingly fled to the Lord for refuge, and this, by the effects produced. In him Christ’s Word is everything: his food, his constant meditation, his chart. He “keeps” it in memory, in heart, in action. Christ’s “commandments” occupy his thoughts and prayers as much as do His promises. That Word working in him subdues his carnal desires, feeds his graces, and draws them into real exercise and action. That Word has such a place in his heart and mind that he cannot but give proof of the same in his talk and walk. In this way the “love of God is perfected”: the Family likeness is plainly stamped upon him. All can see to which “father” he belongs—contrast John 8:44.

“Whoso keepeth His Word . . . hereby (in this way) know we that we are in Him.” Keep His Word perfectly? No. But actually, characteristically, in deep desire and honest effort to do so? Yes. Regeneration is that miracle of Divine grace wrought in the soul which enlists the affections Godwards—which brings the human will into subjection to the Divine—and which produces a real and radical change in the life. That change is from worldliness to godliness, from disobedience to obedience. At the new birth the love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and that love is manifested in a dominating longing and sincere purpose to please in all things the One who has plucked me as a brand from the burning. There is a greater difference between the genuine Christian and the deceived professing Christian than there is between a living man and a corpse. None need remain in doubt if they will honestly measure themselves by the Holy Word of God.

There is only space left for us to consider one other Scripture in this opening article, namely, the Parable of the Sower. Why did the Lord Jesus give us that parable? Why, but to stir me up to serious inquiry and diligent examination so as to discover which kind of a “hearer” I am. In that parable, Christ likened those who hear the Word unto various sorts of ground upon which seeds fall. He divided them into four different classes. Three out of the four brought no fruit to perfection. That is exceedingly solemn and searching. In one case the Devil catches away the good seed out of the heart (Luke 8:12). In another case, they “for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). In another case, they are “choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life” (Luke 8:14). Are you, my reader, described in one of these? Do not ignore this question. We beg you: face it honestly, and make sure which of the various soils represent your heart.

But there are some “good ground” hearers. And how are they to be identified? What did the infallible Son of God say of them? How did He describe them? Did He say, “that on the good ground are they who rest on the Word of God and doubt not His promises: are thoroughly persuaded they are saved, and yet go on living the same kind of life as previously”? No. He did not. Instead, He declared, “But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the Word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” (Luke 8:15). Ah, dear readers, the test is fruit: not knowledge, not boasting, not orthodoxy, not joy, but FRUIT: and such “fruit” as mere nature cannot produce. It is the fruit of the Vine, namely, likeness to Christ, being conformed to His Image. May the Holy Spirit search each one of us.

There is a lot more to this article, if you'd like to read it @ http://spurgeongems.org/awp_assur.htm

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 22, 2014 at 7:55am

Yes, A.W. Pink, Spurgeon and others of the like believed like most of us that salvation will produce fruit and is visible by the fact the new child of God will desire to please His heavenly Father which includes obedience. The keeping of commandments do not keep you saved, they reveal that you "are" saved.

True faith produces works (obedience) ... because we love Him and know Him.

You keep skirting the issue and I am starting to tire of this. You insist that you must keep the commandments to be saved and that is in error. It is because one "is" saved that they will desire to keep the commands of Christ and seek to please the heavenly Father.

For further reading by A.W. Pink:

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Security/sec_foreword.htm

Permalink Reply by thewatchman on February 22, 2014 at 8:50am

I am starting to tire of this too, LT.  I am not skirting any issue.  Right belief will produce right living that flows from a heart of love to Christ.  To claim that anyone should have assurance of salvation that is not living for Christ is in error.  

Salvation apart from obedience is unknown in the sacred Scriptures... Apart from obedience there can be no salvation, for salvation without obedience is a self-contradictory impossibility.  ~A.W. Tozer~

And thank you for  the link.

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