All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Genuine Faith against, the “losing your salvation” notion
I have never felt easy with the statement, “losing your salvation,” or “once saved always saved.” Both are statements are made by human pride. Many who say, “once saved always saved.” seem to act anyway they want. The words Genuine Faith are connected with genuine repentance. Genuine Faith is Led by The Spirit. I will share more with responses. So there is a question, how do any of you see these things? Yet, if you truly are saved, Fruit is produced.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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These questions are for anyone and everyone:
When we are given a new heart, are we given a perfect heart, or just a heart that can now be changed and perfected? What is the inner self that is being renewed? Is it just the mind or is it the heart, too? Do our motives and desires come out of our heart or our mind or both? Our behavior is the result of motives and intentions and wants as well as needs. If we see bad fruit in saved people, then maybe the heart is still in the process of being changed. I don't know.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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By Charles Spurgeon
January 31
Morning
"The Lord our Righteousness."
- Jer_23:6
It will always give a Christian the greatest calm, quiet, ease, and peace, to think of the perfect righteousness of Christ. How often are the saints of God downcast and sad! I do not think they ought to be. I do not think they would if they could always see their perfection in Christ. There are some who are always talking about corruption, and the depravity of the heart, and the innate evil of the soul. This is quite true, but why not go a little further, and remember that we are "perfect in Christ Jesus." It is no wonder that those who are dwelling upon their own corruption should wear such downcast looks; but surely if we call to mind that "Christ is made unto us righteousness," we shall be of good cheer. What though distresses afflict me, though Satan assault me, though there may be many things to be experienced before I get to heaven, those are done for me in the covenant of divine grace; there is nothing wanting in my Lord, Christ hath done it all. On the cross he said, "It is finished!" and if it be finished, then am I complete in him, and can rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory, "Not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." You will not find on this side heaven a holier people than those who receive into their hearts the doctrine of Christ’s righteousness. When the believer says, "I live on Christ alone; I rest on him solely for salvation; and I believe that, however unworthy, I am still saved in Jesus;" then there rises up as a motive of gratitude this thought-"Shall I not live to Christ? Shall I not love him and serve him, seeing that I am saved by his merits?" "The love of Christ constraineth us," "that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves but unto him which died for them." If saved by imputed righteousness, we shall greatly value imparted righteousness.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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You will not find on this side heaven a holier people than those who receive into their hearts the doctrine of Christ’s righteousness. CH Spurgeon
This, is why, we can enjoy this eternal relationship with our God. He has made the way for our hearts to be holy and to remain holy. It is not our righteousness that He sees, but it is Christ's. We are all made perfectly clean and we we never be more clean in this world than we were the moment we believed. We focus so much on our own works that we fail to see what He has done for us. We can become very discouraged when we look inwardly. If we belong to Him we want to please Him by our works. We struggle against the flesh (our own human nature) since it so tends to go against the Spirit. Jesus came and lived that perfect life - the one we all want to live. He did that for us. When we receive Him it is as though we have all lived that perfect life. We can rejoice in Him and enjoy our Father-child relationship. He has made us all perfect in Christ. He wants us to come to Him in faith. We cannot please Him anyway by all our works. We must come to Him in faith - faith in Christ that He has done everything necessary for our salvation. It is so easy to get our eyes on ourselves and all our weaknesses. When we fix our eyes on Him and His righteousness, it does make living a life for and in Him much easier.
Ps 42:5-6
5 Why are you downcast, O my soul?
Why so disturbed within me?
Put your hope in God,
for I will yet praise him,
my Savior and 6 my God.NIV
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Hi Amanda,
Excellent questions you have posed. Here's my go at them:
When we are given a new heart, are we given a perfect heart, or just a heart that can now be changed and perfected?
Jesus says in Matthew 15:18-19 what comes out of an unclean heart, "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. (19) For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnesses, slanders,"
This is the type of heart we come to Jesus with.........and it must be sanctified.
What is the inner self that is being renewed?
Titus 3:5-6, "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (6) whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,"
Another word for "renewing", as in "urban renewal", is renovation.......which means complete tearing out, and removing from the area......then the new construction can start( see Romans 12:2).......Also known as sanctification.
Is it just the mind or is it the Heart, too?
Good question..... Jesus specifies there is a difference in the greatest commandment, Matthew 22:37, "And He said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."
So the answer has to be .......both.
Do our motives and desires come out of our heart or our mind or both?
I would say - both. The mind is the battleground for the heart. Satan works on people's minds......with lies, creating doubts,
encourages coveting, etc.......look how he worked on Eve's mind in the Garden of Eden.
When Jesus was tempted of the devil in Matthew, Chapter 4, Satan tried to win Him over with: needs and desires, power and possessions, and pride. These are in everyday lives.
Yes, our behaviors are largely based on these temptations that the devil likes to utilize.
.......bad fruit in saved people......
Maybe the people are not really saved (Matthew 7:21-23, and Matthew 7:26-27),.....or maybe they are undergoing the period of sanctification (I Corinthians 1:30).
Grace and Peace.
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Thanks, Richard. I like what you've said. In the Matthew 7 Scripture, the works cited by these people seem to be good works in His name, and, yet, they have missed doing the will of God. I'm not sure why people assume these people are doing bad works or assume they are lying to the Lord about the works they've done. To me, they seem very sincere, sadly, but have made a great error. They've built on the wrong foundation -- their righteousness instead of His righteousness. In Matthew 6, Jesus instructs 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness ... How could He know them? They haven't turned to Him to receive Him and His salvation. Colossians 1:13 "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son," ESV.
Matthew 7:21-27
English Standard Version (ESV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Build Your House on the Rock
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on
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Those verses in Matt, as you have titled "I Never Knew You." Their own words convict them. "Lord, did we not prophesy;" " cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’" They never mention how their relationship with Jesus had changed them.
They may have operated in The Power of The Spirit, that part seems clear. "since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable" Rom 11:29 The words used to make the point, reveals the heart of those people. They offered what they had done, not what was done for them. Works are works and if that is, what you will stand on for your salvation then, those people will hear the Most Dreadful Words Spoken. Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!" Matt 7:23
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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I believe there are those that do not know what it means to do something in the Name of Jesus.
As in Jesus’ name Amen. Was it really in the name of Jesus that we did it, or was it just a formality, the end of my prayer? A lot of the things “so-called” done in the name of Jesus; Jesus had nothing to do with it. It was done in their own name, or mind, or in their own desire to see something come to pass, or an answer to a prayer. Like some will condemn divorce using the scripture, “What God has joined together let no man put asunder”, Mat.19:6; all marriages were not put together by God, rather they were brought together by other means, like infatuations, lust after a drinking party, looks, etc., People living together to see if they can get along with each other, if they make it for one year, they may feel it is God that brought them together, or they will produce a child out of wed-lock and then decide it isn’t for them, so it must not have been God’s will, separate and try another, maybe someday we will find God’s will for us.
When we are prompted by the grace of God to do something, like pray for another, visit them in the hospital, do the works mentioned in Isa. 58, then we can say “in the name of Jesus, be healed, fed, clothed, or I come to you in the name of Jesus” because it will be by grace, not by mere desire of man. Its no wonder He said, not all that call me Lord, Lord will enter....
Also read Jer.14:13-16, about the prophets that prophesied in the name of the Lord, and He didn’t send them.
JB’s opinion,
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JB,
Actually, it isn't a bad opinion and I'd venture to say there's biblical truth in it, too. First, when Jesus doesn't know someone, any good work the person does, even if it's in His name, has no eternal value for the person. Perhaps God uses good works that are done by the lost, such as their charitable gifts, to help His people, like that joke about the lady praying for food and an atheist hearing her prayer and leaving a bag of groceries on her porch just to show her there was no God hearing her, and she then thanked God for supplying her with food and using an atheist to do it. But I'm not sure really how that part works, or how God works things out in that respect.
Thanks for the Scripture reference, and in Acts 5 we also see two people who lie to the Holy Spirit. I suppose the people in Matthew 7 may be lying, but they are speaking to Jesus, not to people about Jesus, and the lying prophets in Jeremiah are lying to the people. It's almost like the ones in Matthew 7 truly believe the good lives they've lived should justify them before God. I think of the Pharisees when I read Matthew 7.
As for people who marry, they are entering into a covenant between themselves, even if they are unbelievers or are saved but in rebellion against God. Even if God hasn't joined them together, they are joining themselves together in marriage. God hates the divorce of unbelievers, too, doesn't He? It is sin. It all needs to be put under the blood, but the lost are lost and are without God and without hope in the world. Does God care? He cares enough to be indignant with the wicked everyday.
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Greetings Group,
Let me say......... it's really great to share with you all ....brothers and sisters in Christ.
Yes, like taking the Lord's Name in vain........"in Jesus' Name".....used so often.......so futile......like a magic charm or something.
Thanks for sharing.
Grace and Peace.
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I am not sure I understand what is being said, in some of the last few post?
18 I assure you: Whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven. 19 Again, I assure you : If two of you on earth agree about any matter that you pray for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them.” Matt 18:18-20
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I appointed you that you should go out and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 17 This is what I command you: Love one another. John 15:16-17
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ 23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers! Matt 7:22-23 These words if they do point to some people, we do not know if they did these things at some time in their lives. They chose to allow pride to be their reward. These are the words of Jesus. If these things take place, then they will. How ever one may chose to see them.
For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven, that person is My brother and sister and mother.” Matt 12:50
“Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and don’t do the things I say? Luke 6:46
13 Whatever you ask in My name, I will do it so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. John 14:13-14
And, just to share the bottom line that God is the One Who chooses. 1 “I was sought by those who did not ask; I was found by those who did not seek Me. I said: Here I am, here I am, to a nation that was not called by My name. Isa 65:1
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