Bondage

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Permalink Reply by Seek on November 19, 2013 at 1:09pm

I wonder though.  Elijah had such strong faith, he could call down fire from God in front of all those prophets of Baal without blinking an eye, yet cowered under a tree to die all because of some puney little woman.  I wonder if we have weak faith or seasons of it.

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 19, 2013 at 1:42pm

Interesting with Elijah...

 

in 1 Kings 19:9,10 Elijah was feeling alone, lonely and scared.  In verses 11-13 God revealed Himself in the gentle whisper.

I think we can definitely go through seasons of weak faith... the times we take our eyes off of God and focus more on the 'physicalness' (word?) around us.  We must train ourselves to see the unseen plainly so that what is in plain sight does not distract us.  We walk by faith and not by sight.

Permalink Reply by Seek on November 19, 2013 at 7:31pm

This actually sounds like Wednesdays message. Pastor and reformed Baptist had teaching on Holy Ghost and said that we need to spend time in God's presence daily to get a fresh infilling. So they weren't seeing it as something you get once and never have an issue after but as something we need to start out will or be refreshed in daily in order to walk in the Spirit daily. After that message it does have me wonder about what happened with Elijah being an example of how fear can cause us to falter even if we'd seen God at work and been walking strongly with Him.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on November 19, 2013 at 8:01pm

I'm not going to share much of my own thoughts anymore.


Check out this video on YouTube -- you might find it worthwhile.


target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UXDyTo_iHM&...

It seems like many only see grace as all the sweet things in life. Or something.

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 19, 2013 at 9:06pm

I agree that we need to be refreshed daily, however, it's not because the Holy Spirit leaves us, but rather that we may step away.  By us being refreshed daily, we are reminding ourselves who we are In Christ, and making the commitment to walk in faith, obedience, forgiveness, love etc...  It's like pushing a reset button for ourselves each morning... but it's not God who has a tendency to leave,.... we have that tendency, so we need to recalibrate and refocus our hearts and our minds bringing every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

Also, our actions can grieve the Holy Spirit which may 'feel' like He has left us, but He has not, and He promises He never will.

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 19, 2013 at 9:12pm

Excellent video message Amanda.  Thanks so much for sharing.

I say a great big AMEN!

Permalink Reply by Seek on November 19, 2013 at 9:15pm

The video sounds something like that devotion I got about not trying to penetrate the cloud God brings over you. And I think its why when I'm not in that depression I can see changes in me but then the depression would come on and blot out everything. And those in my church would adamantly state God doesn't cause depression or want us depressed yet I think He does "allow" it and because he sees the change it will bring about. He knows we will cry and hurt and not understand like a child who doesn't understand the tummy ache from too much candy. But when the parent says no its to spare the pain and not to punish them.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on November 19, 2013 at 9:35pm

I'm actually surprised to hear your favorable opinions regarding the video and your opinions about Elijah, too. I suppose everything non essential is always debatable but truth doesn't change. Opinions can be wrong.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on November 19, 2013 at 10:21pm

For clarification, my surprise is because it's commonly thought that God would never make someone get into the boat of suffering, and especially suffering through a storm of depression and panic and fear. Those things are often viewed as sinful. I've wondered myself and have questioned God. I've been the one to wrongly question God and be angry with God. I've also wanted healing and have questioned why it isn't given. Some have told me I don't want it bad enough. I kind of began thinking that God was using it to achieve something in me like the video explains. I began thinking that after talking with a Christian psychologist in 2012 and also again last summer. I still have anger. I think it takes humility to ask for help. I ask God everyday. Then I ask God to send helpers, too, and to let me accept the help, but then it seems like that's wrong, too -- to need human help. I should only need Jesus.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on November 20, 2013 at 6:35am

Ok, here is what I was trying to speak with you about earlier....

I DO believe God allows suffering (even depression), in order to work out something, either in us or in those around us, or both.  My church however does not, and this is where I've had such issues in the mixed message.  But the one article you sent seemed to me to say what the people in my church say...that we have to be joyful even if we are suffering.  But maybe I am reading it wrong, that's just how it appeared to me.  And that's where I falter cause that's what my mother and other church members say....smile no matter how much pain you're in so you don't bring others down.  Well like I told mom....I can't be phoney like that...to which she took offense of course.  If it works for her, but it doesn't for me.  If I'm not well and if I'm in pain and sad, it shows.  I can't just plaster on a smile and fake it til I break it.  And that article sounded like that's what it was saying, at least when I read it. 

I DO believe God allows it, just like He allowed it with Job.  But then people in my church say that's OT, that all changed with Christ.  Did it?  Just because Christ has made us righteous, did that change that God is the same today, yesterday and forever?  If He would allow it then, did He stop allowing it just because we're made righteous by Christ?  I don't think so.  Yet I keep getting told I'm wrong on that. 

I've had some tell me I don't want it bad enough or haven't surrendered or let go of self...cliche after cliche after cliche.  And I keep hearing that internal voice telling me to stop listening to the cliches from people who are stuck in their own forms of religious bondage.  The church is supposed to act as a hospital to the broken, and yet many churches feel we're not supposed to let our feelings show and rely on God and smile through it.  And if we haven't, we haven't died to self.  And the Bible says to build one another up and encourage one another, bear one another's burdens....so how is telling someone they have it all wrong and haven't let go building them up?  How is it bearing their burdens or weeping with them or mourning with them?  I think so many pick and choose scriptures to suit what they want from it.  And often, depending on where we are, we may just have to in order to make it through the day, or we see no other way to cope with it. 

What we spoke of about truth being truth and how we apply it is what I was getting at.  What is true yes is true.  But being that everyone is on a different path and are in life, that everyone has different emotions and experiences, we can hear the same message and yet receive truth that applies to our own situation and apply it in the manner God can make it work for us.  And sometimes just our own emotions get in the way of the truth. 

What I've continually struggled with since I was saved is all the religious teachings contradicting what I was hearing internally and it's left me with such confusion and turmoil.  It's a religious attitude I was brought up in.  And some say that what I get from others in my church isn't correct and some say it is.  So it's at odds as which to believe and I'm trying to learn to just lean on the internal voice right or wrong and pray God makes my path straight no matter what.  But trying to line up what others tell me with what I read in scripture is what has caused such turmoil.  So when someone says the internal voice is right that I'm hearing, it gives me relief.  Then another comes and says no...you have to do this or you have to do that....and the turmoil comes on again.  I'm trying to learn to shut out those things that cause the confusion and turmoil.  Right or wrong what someone is saying, if it's causing confusion and turmoil, it's not going to help me.  Only prayer and listening to the internal and staying in the Word is going to do it.  I just pray it does it faster cause I hate depression and the hopeless feelings.  And that is why, yes I DO want it bad enough.  I don't think anyone wants to be in that state.  But wanting something makes no difference if God is not ready to give us revelation or move in some form that will lift us from that season. 

I get mired between Joyce saying we have to make up our minds.  Well I've made mine up over and over, just to lose it again...lost my mind.  LOL  So apparently there is more to it than just setting our mind or it would stay set.  Maybe it's just a matter of time.  We set it enough until it takes permanent hold.  We learn to be content in all things.  Paul learned....but how long did it take him to learn?  How long was he studying that we don't hear about? 

Why I say I view depression as a sin...it's not a sin in and of we're intentionally sinning.  But depression is not a Godly trait.  We're BORN into sinful flesh, just as Paul said he does the things he does not want to do because it is the sin IN him.  We have sin in the flesh, we're in the flesh.  We can never escape sin.  That doesn't mean we're intentionally sinning.  When I get irritated, it's not a Godly trait and anything not Godly is sin.  But it doesn't mean I want to be irritated, meant to be, or knew how to stop it/control it.  But my flesh is sin and that comes out regardless of my efforts.  And I simply seek stability and know that it is available somewhere.  But I'm simply hoping it's not so many more years down the road because I truly just cannot stand the instability yet feel powerless to stop it. 

I hope all this makes some sense.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on November 20, 2013 at 6:56am

Seek,


Here is a link to the article. 

http://www.ccef.org/blog/hard-pairing-suffering-and-joy

I can't speak towards what your church teaches. It's between you and the Lord to decide about where you attend a local congregation.

What I see the article as saying is what I posted in a comment yesterday but deleted because it wasn't helpful and that is this:

Not about conscious effort -- trying -- but about choosing to rest in the working of Christ. This has been difficult for me to learn and goes far beyond just resting in what Christ did to save my soul. Christ is still working. He is at the right hand of God, working, if I understand it correctly. 

I think one of the things that I've allowed myself to believe is that suffering and joy can't exist together or are incompatible, and it does appear that those who are going through a terrible time do feel hopeless and joy loses all of its value. They can't even imagine feeling good again. They tend to call themselves broken and damaged and then feel hopeless because, well, the broken and the damaged have no hope for joy. 

That's how I feel. Not many have ever told me to seek joy or aim for it but that I'm supposed to be joyful anyway no matter what, and then I feel guilty on top of everything else and feel like I'm sinning for not feeling joyful and rejoicing.

But it's not a two step process of weep and then laugh -- this is what I'm learning from Scripture anyway -- but both can be experienced simultaneously. 

Jesus was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief but He was also joyful. There are other examples of this in Scripture, such as this one about Saint Paul, who was in affliction -- fighting without and fear within -- but also overflowing with joy about another thing and being comforted by the coming of Titus. 


2 Corinthians 7:4-7
English Standard Version (ESV)
4 I am acting with great boldness toward you; I have great pride in you; I am filled with comfort. In all our affliction, I am overflowing with joy.

5 For even when we came into Macedonia, our bodies had no rest, but we were afflicted at every turn—fighting without and fear within. 6 But God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, 7 and not only by his coming but also by the comfort with which he was comforted by you, as he told us of your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me, so that I rejoiced still more.

It was just food for thought and I found it hopeful, personally, in application to my experience. 

I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. I know I can trust your spiritual well being to the Lord, and I only seem to complicate things. So I'm backing away from this discussion. God will send you help and helpers.

Permalink Reply by Seek on November 20, 2013 at 7:02am

That's how I feel. Not many have ever told me to seek joy or aim for it but that I'm supposed to be joyful anyway no matter what, and then I feel guilty on top of everything else and feel like I'm sinning for not feeling joyful and rejoicing.

This is exactly what I experience as well...feeling I'm sinning for not being joyful.  Yet I've sought joy and aimed for it, but it is fleeting over and over.  So there must be more to it or it just takes repeated efforts to sink in more permanently.  I don't know.  But yeah, that's exactly what I get told...be joyful anyway, and it's so at odds with what I read in scripture and it's so phoney feeling to me.

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