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When was the Holy Spirit Given?
This question came up in my reading of Psalms, where in 51:11, David says: Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
So I looked up information on this:
John 7:39
The Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts 1:16
... which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake....
Luke 1:15, 41, 67
He [John the Baptist] shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. (v.15)
Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. (v.41)
Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost. (v.67)
Now there's a whole lot more in both new and old, but this gives an idea of what I'm questioning.
So I thought, perhaps the Holy Spirit was there, but the "infilling" was what happened in the N.T. But then I go back to John 7:39.
I can't seem to find enough online to explain this and was wondering if anyone had any insight into what this might mean.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Seek,
You asked: "Therefore, I often wonder, is that truly satan attacking, or is it the programming of our minds that spent so many years with these thoughts unhindered that hasn't been completely renewed to think differently yet?"
My belief is that if prayer and the Word of God and the spiritual armor are not helping, then it isn't a spiritual problem.
This is called an intrusive thought. Almost everyone has them from time to time. They seem to appear from out of nowhere and are involuntary. An example of someone who has an intrusive thought is a woman suffering from postpartum depression who has thoughts of harming her baby and the thoughts frighten her because she is unable to stop them. Another example is someone having thoughts of suicide or death and seeing themselves in a coffin at the funeral home, etc...
I have posted this article before in another discussion and hope it brings you a little peace of mind. Intrusive thoughts are part of depression, PTSD, OCD, and other illnesses and disorders.
http://www.gotquestions.org/intrusive-thoughts.html
Question: "Are intrusive thoughts sin? Are spontaneous violent, sexual, or blasphemous thoughts sin?"
Answer: Nearly everyone, at some point or another, has been subject to an intrusive thought. These involuntary, unwanted images, phrases, or impulses are extremely common. Spontaneous thoughts of violence to children or animals, inappropriate sexual contact, and blasphemy can be extremely disturbing and even cause some to question their salvation. But are they even sin?
God is not surprised by intrusive thoughts. He knows all of our thoughts—intentional and otherwise (Psalm 139:2). He also knows the feebleness of the human mind—"The LORD knows the thoughts of man, that they are a mere breath," (Psalm 94:11). One of the biggest fears about intrusive blasphemous thoughts is that God will not forgive them. God knows the wicked will blaspheme (Psalm 10:4), but He is always prepared to forgive—"Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return to the LORD, and He will have compassion on him, and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon," (Isaiah 55:7). Furthermore, God is well aware of the difference between the convictions of a wicked heart and the fleeting thought of someone who knows and follows Him (1 Chronicles 28:9). "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12).
God has given us tools to fight intrusive thoughts. Psalm 139:23-24 encourages us to submit our hearts and thoughts to God. He can determine if there is anything harmful in us that needs to be dealt with. If the thoughts truly are unbidden and spontaneous, 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 explains what to do next: "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ…" Blasphemous, harmful, and deviant thoughts and inclinations are part of spiritual warfare, and we need God's help to fight them. By studying Scripture, reaffirming the truth in our minds, and Bible memorization, we can greatly diminish or even vanquish intrusive thoughts—"When my anxious thoughts multiply within me, Your consolations delight my soul" (Psalm 94:19).
Intrusive thoughts are not necessarily sin—even blasphemous ones. Our minds are weak and easily influenced by the world around us. But intentionally exposing ourselves to blasphemy, violence, and other evils may be sin. The more we surround ourselves with worldly things, the more the world will invade our thoughts. Instead, we should concentrate on the honorable, the true, and the pure (Philippians 4:8). If we fill ourselves with good, God will bless us: "How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of scoffers! But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and in His law he meditates day and night. He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither; and in whatever he does, he prospers," (Psalm 1:1-3).
Sometimes intrusive thoughts can be more than spiritual. If Scripture memorization and prayer don't significantly diminish harmful thoughts and inclinations, the body's own chemistry may be at work. Intrusive thoughts are a symptom of obsessive compulsive disorder, post-partum depression, and attention deficit disorder, among others. Just as God has provided trained professionals to advice in spiritual matters, He has provided us with doctors and counselors to help with the physical. If intrusive thoughts become particularly debilitating, realize that "the way everlasting" (Psalm 139:24) may require the humility to ask for help.
Recommended Resource: The Mind of Christ by T.W. Hunt.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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My Christian counselor did say he feels I have obsessive compulsive thoughts. And I know it's not sin to have a thought, but to dwell or act on it. Yet having it is what bothers me so much because they are those intrusive kind. Where reading scripture or prayer doesn't always banish them. And I can try and circumvent them by thinking on something else and ultimately end up hearing them underlying or even OVER the thought I'm trying to think on. That's why I said to Carla it can be maddening. When pray on this (nearly constant), I really feel God keeps saying they will ultimately stop or diminish, that I didn't get this way overnight and won't completely heal overnight and yet....these thoughts are so unwanted and irritating that I just want them to go now, to stop. That, or I want a padded room with loud music to drown them out.
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We do battle the flesh, which is different from the spiritual battle with Satan and demons. The flesh is a huge enemy. It wants what it wants and is in opposition with our new heart and our new spirit. As I was reading your comments, I was reminded of talking about this with you way back, so I know you've had this struggle a long time and yet you are growing spiritually. In James 1:14, we learn that Satan isn't our sole enemy when it comes to temptation. Since you aren't giving in to the thoughts, it means you are walking in the spirit. IMO
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PS The loud music won't help. It's on the inside of you. It's not an attack from outside of you. Things on the outside can cause bad thoughts. But yours are coming up without outside influence.
I have both kinds of battle with my thoughts.
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Well, I'd rather walk in the Spirit without all that assaulting my mind constantly of course.
I cringe even at the slightest language in TV shows that I find myself turning off more and more than I will watch. It's bad when I even cringe watching Touched by an Angel because someone curses in it. They're so few and far between, but since those words frequently pop into my mind, I don't want to hear them so I can try and forget them and erase them from my mind somehow.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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We do battle the flesh, but the victory comes in the same way through scripture.
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I'm thinking Harvey may just be onto something about my having obsessive compulsive thinking and he sincerely believes he can help. Sooooo....here's hoping. Man of all the things to be OCD about...your thoughts. Ick.
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You'll get there. I'm glad you have someone to talk to about it in person.... that's always so much better. :-) Bless you sis.
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Actually, I've talked and talked about it, just haven't had anyone that understood it or could tell me what to do about it. Harvey believes he can, sooooo. ;-)
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I mean as opposed to being a physical problem. If one believes problems can be non-medical, then problems must exist that are non-spiritual, according to the law of contradiction.
And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” Mark 2:17.
In context, what did Jesus mean?
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Hmmmmmmmm, I never thought of that verse. Is a great one though when encountered with anyone who would advise people to not seek medical attention and trust God for healing.
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Mark 2:17 Jesus is talking to the scribes and Pharisees who felt they were righteous in keeping the law in their own right. They were questioning Jesus as to why He would eat with sinners. Jesus was saying to them that He came for those who are sick, not righteous... I don't think this has anything to do with physical sickness... Jesus will not reject anyone who comes to Him (John 6:37).
Anyone who recognizes him/herself as a sinner in need of a Saviour and repents is the object of Jesus' call. These are the ones in need of a physician.
Anyone who is sinful but thinks themselves righteous will refuse to repent and maybe not see the need to repent...
God uses doctors to heal, and I believe He equips them quite well. However, it's by God's Grace and the ability He gives them that they can heal. They may work hard and study to get where they are, but it is still by God's Grace and for God's purposes that they can do what they do.
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