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What about fate?
How do you see or feel about fate? In the viewpoint of death, our time, or when we leave our bodies. Apart from suicide {which good for them God knows their heart} truly difficult on those they leave behind. Do you believe our time is set in God Plan and Will? Or, are there times when life is taken from another, and can these acts go against God’s Will and Plan? Was it my Sister-in-law’s time and she just happened to have cancer at that same time? Questions along that train of thought.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Chris,
I found this article at gotquestions.org and it may shed light on this topic.
http://www.gotquestions.org/fate-destiny.html
Only because you mentioned suicide do I bring it up, too, and I'm wondering why suicide is considered as being outside of the realm of "one's time to go"? What I mean is, for those who successfully commit suicide, even though they die by their own hand, isn't it their time? Wouldn't God intervene, if it wasn't? This is different from saying suicide is God's will. I don't believe it is God's will at all. Within God's plan for mankind, God has allowed liberties and people can commit acts of their own will, both obedient and disobedient acts, and God's foreknowledge means nothing catches God by surprise.
This question isn't aimed at you personally but I'm just thinking out loud. I was reading 2 Samuel 1 today. It's the account of the young man who killed King Saul after King Saul attempted suicide. Did God prevent King Saul from dying by his own hand? But the one who administered the death blow was wrong for killing King Saul, too, and was punished by losing his own life, and God didn't stop the young man from taking Saul's life. Of course, God knew all along how King Saul would die, and his death had been worked into God's plan.
So much to think about ...
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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on
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Amanda thank you for sharing that web site. I was not sure why I included it the way I did until I looked up what that site had to say about the subject. Your view is a interesting one, one I had not considered. A friend that worked with Arnette at JCP, her husband hung himself in the dining room. One of his daughters found him not long after his actions were successful. Many religions see suicide as unforgivable. When I mentioned it is a good thing God knows our hearts, I meant we cannot possibly know what lead up to the action. We serve a Loving God, and many actions of those who may have lost a true grip of reality, can only be between them and God. The family was of course devastated. I quickly found myself judging his actions as the most selfish. I was sternly correctly by The Lord, that I had no place or right to judge. Just to step up and Pray for the one's he left behind. When I consider your thoughts, are they no different than when one murders another?
My belief when I first posted this was as you said, "... nothing catches God by surprise." I heard a statement the other day which was why I asked this question it went something like this, "our fate {as in time of death} is fixed by The One Who created us, to fear death profits no man." As I pondered on this, I could see where it extends to not just our death but our life. I agree with what the site shared about the idea some will have, if God has predestined our fate why bother caring or trying to live as we want. I have heard those kinds of statements since the first time I began to witness to others about Christ. In my mind that is the entire point. If God has a plan for my life, then I will be judged on how I lived my life. I never can understand the idea of being a puppet of God. Where is the joy in something as that? What kind of Victory can be Celebrated in Heaven when all we ever were was puppets? Thank you for your response it is valuable, you add a much needed point of view.
Bless you Amanda
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In Matthew 6:27, Jesus asks, Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?
We can't lengthen our lives by worrying. Can we in other ways, such as by taking care of ourselves in godly ways, not abusing ourselves, showing moderation in eating, drinking, not abusing drugs, etc.?
I don't know. Many people who have lived very healthy lives have died in accidents.
I recently studied this, wondering if God decides our deaths, or if Satan gets to decide when we die. I want God to decide when I die, not me and definitely not Satan.
We know God sent plagues upon Egypt, causing death. In that account, God said that about midnight He would go throughout Egypt (Ex. 11:4). In 2 Samuel 24:15-17, we are told that the Lord sent a plague on Israel, and it was an angel who was striking down the people. 1 Chronicles 21:15 says God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. 2 Kings 19:35 speaks of the angel of the Lord putting to death 185,000 men in the Assyrian camp. Job 33:22 is enlightening, too. "His soul draws near the pit, and his life to those who bring death."
My questions were, What does it mean that the devil has the power of death? Does the devil decide when someone dies? Does God permit him that liberty as a curse on mankind because of the Fall?
The power of death is mentioned in Scripture:
"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil" (Hebrews 2:14, ESV).
God is Sovereign, and yet the devil clearly has some authority. After Adam and Eve sinned, God decreed that they would return to the dust. I find it strange that God specifically told satan not to take Job's life. I think the devil does get to decide, but I don't think it's the standard because Satan has constituted authority -- set up and established and permitted by God but not condoned by God. The lines have been drawn.
God can over rule man's will and Satan's will at anytime, in any way. The power of death that the devil has can't be absolute, but perhaps God lets the devil determine for the most part when the wicked die, but I believe God determines when His children die, and, yet, we are at liberty to decide, too, but God can over rule our liberties, as I already mentioned. The saved can be disobedient and commit murder, which is deciding to take life, or commit suicide, or live in such a way that they die from the effects of their lifestyles, or in car accidents for drinking and driving, etc. IMO
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Chris,
Ecc 3:2 comes to mind.
For everything there is a season,
a time for every activity under heaven.
2 A time to be born and a time to die.In light of God's Sovereignty, I can understand why people struggle with this.
I believe this is where the topic of free will comes into play.
2 years ago I had melanoma... It was something I brought on myself by being in the sun too much. I also have a highrisk skin type.. fair skin and blue eyes. Was it in God's Will for me to have melanoma? No-- I don't think so.
4 years ago I had open heart surgery... It was something I had no control over as I was born with a congenital heart defect (aortic stenosis).. basically a bicuspid heart valve. It had calcified and essentially closed off. The doctors said it was a miracle that I was still alive. I don't think God caused that either.. I don't think it was within His will for me to have that either.
My oldest son is severely dyslexic and has many struggles in school (14 years old)
My youngest son is working through his anger issues and has gotten in trouble... He's highly passionate, which can be a blessing...or a curse.
As a child I was abused by my biological father... he was an alcoholic. Was that in God's will and plan for me? No... it wasn't.
Can God use these things? Yes He can and He does.
Will I allow Him to? will I share my story to encourage others and help them through their difficulties?
We are born into sin, in a sinful world separated from God.
He's shown us who He is and given us a way back to Him.
It may very well be true that our time is set in God's plan and will. There's no reason why God can't say 'My child, it's time for you to come home now.' .... But I don't think it helps for us to say that to people at a loved ones funeral.
You also asked: "Or, are there times when life is taken from another, and can these acts go against God’s Will and Plan?"
atheists in particular love to point to OT scriptures and take verses out of context to attempt to give evidence that God condones murder and uses it for His purposes... and of coarse they place Him in the most negative light completely disregarding the context of the scriptures. I love the honesty of the scriptures. To me, it point to how authentic and trustworthy they are. In the context of the murders in the OT, it is always satan who is ultimately commiting these atrocities. Through my studies, I am learning that God takes responsibility for what He permits fallen angels or wicked beings to do. For example see Exodus 12:12 ...and then read ahead to verse 23. satan is the destroyer (Rev 9:11)
John 10:10
10 The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.
John 10:10 shows us God's Will and Plan... to give us a rich and satisfying life. Now... here we get into problems with all the false teachings around what a 'rich and satisfying life' actually is. We know it's not health, wealth and prosperity because those 3 things go against all of our Lord's teachings.
So what is it? What do you think this rich and satisfying life is?
Blessings, Carla
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Carla Thank you for the opportunity to answer such a easy question. LOL. Let me attempt by starting a verse before and after John 10:10 9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life,and have it abundantly. 11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. John 10:9-11
I was raised Catholic and went to parochial school for 8yrs, I also had undiagnosed ADHD {found out when I was about 34} so from the late 60's through early 70's I was in school with either Nuns or old retired public school teachers, again with FULL BLOWN ADHD. My IQ and other general test were quite higher than my daily work. So from 1st grade to 8th I was treated as lazy and other "fine qualities." The skinny was I did not dig school, and school felt the same. When I was 15 The Spirit Movement was in full swing this was around 75 or so. My parents got caught up in it, and at 15 I accepted Jesus in a New way and was Baptized in The Holy Spirit. And, not long after that the Catholic Church changed how they viewed things. My parents never lost The Spirit but they returned to the Church. By that time I was 16 and backslidden, and was that way off and on till 18. Far to many stories to share. My first marriage I was 18 and by 19 I was a dad. My Knowledge of The Father, of Jesus, and The Holy Spirit had continued to grow my walk was far from stellar. Yet, His Call was without question or persistence. {I am getting to the point I promise} My life like most others is filled with lots of sidetracks and highways.
The reason I shared those verses and a very short history is, I entered through The Door and He Saved me. Not just in how we share that we are Saved by Jesus. From foolish choices and careless thrills I by all rights should not be here. At least 5+ times I should be dead. My Mom who spent so much time on her knees before the Throne Room of The Lord, I have been Saved. My point is, not that was not my time, I believe if it were than I would not be here. I have a debt that I can never repay. Both to God and my Mom. To your question, " What do you think this rich and satisfying life is?" Having the opportunity to live a life that is both worthy of my Mom's Prayers, but even more worthy of God caring for someone like me.
Do I have financial needs? Yes. I have been disabled from a failed back fusion now 11+ yrs. Do I believe in Healing and Godly Blessing? Yes. However, He has shown me far more through my pain and lack, than I would have ever seen otherwise. I am a flawed man in many ways, yet The Creator of All things knows my name and it is even written in The Lambs Book of Life. So I am still working towards, yet at the same time enjoying a Rich and Satisfying Life.
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Thank you for sharing some of your story with me Chris. Bless you... We all certainly need to see our need for the Saviour. He's brought you to that point, and I would say that is the starting point of the rich and satisfying life which Jesus wants for us... Jesus, and us knowing our need for Him.
ps-- it's certainly not an 'easy question'. :-)
Blessings, Carla
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Carla,
I find interest in what you've said regarding the destroyer. Can you further elaborate?
I'm leaning towards the belief that death is not just something that happens to people but is a "being" as well.
Some interesting points came up during my studies of this and I'm still learning so let me share notes with you.
In Revelation 20:14 we see that both death and hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Could death be a force of some sort, a being? Hades, also?
In Revelation 6:8, the pale rider is named Death and Hades followed. They were given power over a fourth of the earth.
So, can Hades be a place and a being? Can Death be a state of being as well as a particular being?
Has God given Death constituted authority, the same as Satan has been given constituted authority?
It seems so to me, for when Hebrews 2:14 is added in, we are told Satan has the power of death. Satan can control death but God is Sovereign. Yet, we have liberties and Satan has liberties. We can take life from others. Satan certainly can. When we take life, we are giving in to temptation, sinning.
But I also see in Scripture that God also uses death as either punishment on the wicked or discipline on the saved and is just and righteous in doing so.
As I studied this, it became apparent that it's a pretty deep subject and a lot to think about.
What Jesus said in John 14:30 is compelling. "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me (ESV).
Also, John 10:18, "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."
Wasn't Jesus saying that death had no power over Him, nor did Satan?
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, (Hebrews 2:14, ESV).
Death came into the world through sin. Jesus was without sin. He gave up His life willingly.
I think God is very involved in everything that takes place in His creation.
Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Psalm 116:15
In John 21, Jesus said, 18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God.
Not only is it God's will that we glorify God in our lives, but in our deaths as well.
One day there will be no more death.
IMO
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Hi Amanda,
For the sake of time I can't talk about it right now...but just wanted you to know I will respond when I have more time...
Love and Blessings, Carla
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Amanda,
Could death be a force of some sort, a being? Hades, also?In Revelation 6:8, the pale rider is named Death and Hades followed. They were given power over a fourth of the earth.
So, can Hades be a place and a being? Can Death be a state of being as well as a particular being?I believe Hades is a place based on
Luke 16:23.
"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom."
and Matthew 11:23‘And you Capernaum, will not be exalted to Heaven will you? You will descend to Hades...’
Has God given Death constituted authority, the same as Satan has been given constituted authority?
It seems so to me, for when Hebrews 2:14 is added in, we are told Satan has the power of death. Satan can control death but God is Sovereign. Yet, we have liberties and Satan has liberties. We can take life from others. Satan certainly can. When we take life, we are giving in to temptation, sinning.When Adam and Eve sinned we (they) essentially handed over all authority which God intended for us to have and gave it to satan. They invited sin and death in to be the new authority on earth... we gave up what was rightfully ours.. However, Jesus came to defeat sin and death and gain that authority back for us. I believe that’s what Hebrews 2:14-18 is saying. Here it is from the NASB:
14 Therefore, since the children share in [m]flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not [n]give help to angels, but He gives help to the [o]descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He [p]had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
For those of us who trust in Jesus and rely on Him, satan has no power or authority over us.. But, for people who have not trusted in Jesus.. satan still has power of sin and death over them.
But I also see in Scripture that God also uses death as either punishment on the wicked or discipline on the saved and is just and righteous in doing so.Yes.. agreed.
As I studied this, it became apparent that it's a pretty deep subject and a lot to think about. Yes.. again. :-)
What Jesus said in John 14:30 is compelling. "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me (ESV).Satan has no power over Jesus and could not hold Him in death.. The death of our Lord was God’s will so that the very same sin and death could be defeated. satan can hold us in death if we do not trust in Jesus.. We need Jesus.
Also, John 10:18, "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."We know that Jesus’ death is not the end. His Messiah-ship and divinity is displayed in how He rose again back to life. Death has lost it’s victory and it’s sting because of what Jesus has done.
1 Corinthians 15:55-57
New International Version (NIV)
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[a]56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Wasn't Jesus saying that death had no power over Him, nor did Satan?Yes
One day there will be no more death.
Yes.. Amen. Our Victory is in Christ.(please excuse the crazy fonts...I'm not sure how to fix it)
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Very good and interesting insights. I found this article that might help us and others understand Satan's authority. I believe God has set boundaries upon Satan in this world. I still have questions, such as, didn't God have boundaries set upon Satan after the fall of mankind and before Christ died (in the OT)? I believe God did.
Question: "How is Satan god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)?"
Answer: The phrase “god of this world” (or “god of this age”) indicates that Satan is the major influence on the ideals, opinions, goals, hopes and views of the majority of people. His influence also encompasses the world’s philosophies, education, and commerce. The thoughts, ideas, speculations and false religions of the world are under his control and have sprung from his lies and deceptions.
Satan is also called the "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. He is the "ruler of this world" in John 12:31. These titles and many more signify Satan’s capabilities. To say, for example, that Satan is the "prince of the power of the air" is to signify that in some way he rules over the world and the people in it.
This is not to say that he rules the world completely; God is still sovereign. But it does mean that God, in His infinite wisdom, has allowed Satan to operate in this world within the boundaries God has set for him. When the Bible says Satan has power over the world, we must remember that God has given him domain over unbelievers only. Believers are no longer under the rule of Satan (Colossians 1:13). Unbelievers, on the other hand, are caught "in the snare of the devil" (2 Timothy 2:26), lie in the "power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19), and are in bondage to Satan (Ephesians 2:2).
So, when the Bible says that Satan is the "god of this world," it is not saying that he has ultimate authority. It is conveying the idea that Satan rules over the unbelieving world in a specific way. In 2 Corinthians 4:4, the unbeliever follows Satan's agenda: "The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ." Satan's scheme includes promoting false philosophies in the world—philosophies that blind the unbeliever to the truth of the Gospel. Satan’s philosophies are the fortresses in which people are imprisoned, and they must be set free by Christ.
An example of one such false philosophy is the belief that man can earn God's favor by a certain act or acts. In almost every false religion, meriting God’s favor or earning eternal life is a predominant theme. Earning salvation by works, however, is contrary to biblical revelation. Man cannot work to earn God's favor; eternal life is a free gift (see Ephesians 2:8-9). And that free gift is available through Jesus Christ and Him alone (John 3:16; 14:6). You may ask why mankind does not simply receive the free gift of salvation (John 1:12). The answer is that Satan—the god of this world—has tempted mankind to follow his pride instead. Satan sets the agenda, the unbelieving world follows, and mankind continues to be deceived. It is no wonder that Scripture calls Satan a liar (John 8:44).
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-god-world.html#ixzz2hv3lEfWE
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PS As far as Satan's liberties permitted under God's Sovereignty, I'm not so sure anymore that Satan seeks permission from God before he attacks Christians. Yet, God is all knowing and all seeing and nothing Satan does surprises God. I believe Satan is not beyond God's control. I've heard someone describe it as Satan being on a leash. I'm not so sure that's how I would describe it, but I do believe there is a cut off point for the wickedness of both man and Satan.
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In regards to satan having liberties, he has full liberty towards non-believers.. But for us as God's children I believe it's hands off...
However, having said that, if we don't know our identity In Christ, the enemy can still place doubts and temptations in front of us... and since we are still in our sinful bodies and in this world, we may succumb if we are not resting in Jesus fully armored.
We must know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are Blessed, Chosen, Adopted, Accepted, Redeemed, Forgiven and Loved. This doesn't mean that we will never have difficulties... It just means that when we do have difficulties we can be secure in knowing that Jesus is with us as He has promised to never leave or forsake us.
I'm sure there's much more to say about this... these are just some thoughts for now.
Blessings, Carla
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