Is Colorado paying the price for Mocking God by allowing same-sex marriage and legal marijuana?

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Permalink Reply by Grazer #E2H on September 19, 2013 at 11:17pm

If you're suggesting God is sending punishment on them then absolutely not:

Luke 13:1-5 NIV

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

You think Colarado are more guilty than anyone else? Whatever Colardo is suffering, the only thing God is sending is love and compassion for what's happened.

I took a shot at looking at the larger subject of God and punishment a while ago -http://www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blogs/god-and-punishment-do-the...

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 23, 2013 at 6:21pm

Grazer,

>>Citing biblical precendence is not always the move. The disciples once asked if they should call down fire from heaven because Elijah did and Jesus rebuked them for it (Luke 9:52-56)  Coming back to Luke 13, Jesus is quite clear that without repentance, everyone will perish, but Jesus does not say when. If God loves the world so much that He gave his Son, why would He deliberately inflict pain on it? I just do not see how we can talk about God comforting those affected if He was the one that deliberately sent the disaster. This applies to many issues where people suffer, not just natural disasters. So if God does not punish us whilst on this earth but does not simply let things go un-noticed, what does that leave us? For that, we need to take a look at the cross.>>

Citing biblical precedence should always be the move. The most valuable and most authoritative one, specially when rightly divided. I read your discussion and you definitely have a wrong view of the biblical God. Stop reading the writings of fools and get in the word, so you can rightly divide it. It is good to read those writings but to debunk them, but not to embrace them or propagate them. It is foolishness.

>>...but Jesus came along and convinced God to pour out this wrath on Himself instead of upon us.

It pleased the Father to bruise Jesus. Jesus had no convincing to do.

>>Life is going to send its share of hurt, but God allows it because He designed us to learn and adapt. As we adapt, we become more disciplined so God is not disciplining, but installing discipline through how life is. When we are going through pain, God is there to comfort and support us.

I would not presumed to know what God is thinking unless he tells me. We know due to the abundance of scripture that God can pass judgment over anyone he feels like, whenever he feels it's necessary. We have a bible full of those examples.

LT has done a marvelous job below, giving us great biblical understanding. But we do a tremendous disservice to God's word, if in trying to protect God's love, we change him. God forgive us for such horrendous sin. God does not need you or me to try to protect his holiness or goodness. He remains Holy and perfect even if he destroys an entire nation. God knows what He is doing.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 20, 2013 at 8:06am

Richard,

 

There are a couple of things to ponder regarding your question(s):

 

1) God, who does not change, is capable of bringing judgment (not final judgment as that is future) upon the earth to individuals (acts 5) groups of people or even nations at any time as long as He does not break any of His promises to mankind.

2) It is impossible for us to know whether an event is of God or as a consequence of the fall. In the OT we see events like Sodom and Gomorrah and know God did this because it is recorded for us in His Word. We do not have that benefit today.

3) There is also the question of whether God would bring such calamity on an area that also included His children. We know that God would have relented His judgment on Sodom if there had been 50, 45, etc righteous people, but there were not. Instead He gets Lot and his family out before executing the judgment.

 

So, is this event from God directly? It is impossible to know for sure, but probably is not based on #3 above.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on September 21, 2013 at 12:17pm

LT,

As I look at #3, I can't help but think about the remnant of Israelites that were always spared when God was responding with judgment in the OT. The remnant still suffered but God would help them in their hardships and then bless them again.

I think the real question here is -- can we make a correlation between the judgments God brought against Israel for worshipping other gods and being disobedient and the people today?

I think it depends upon the spiritual state of the person, saved or lost. Believers today are under the new covenant and are part of the Church and don't experience judgment for sinning but God disciplines them. See Hebrews 12. Could that discipline include even physical death? I don't know -- it's up to God, I guess. 

Now, I look at the passage of 1 Corinthians 10:1-12, which Richard has given as proof text. But I can't stop there. Verse 12 is admonition, I believe, to make sure one is a firm believer, and verse 13 mentions that God is faithful, and in verse 14 Paul tells them plainly to flee from idolatry, and verse 21 clearly says you can't have communion with the Lord and the table of demons, and then verse 22 mentions the Lord's jealousy. 

In other words, is God going to put up with a true believer committing idolatry? No! He's going to discipline them, and if God punished unbelievers in the OT who were committing idolatry, then, I ask, Why would it have changed since then?

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 21, 2013 at 1:35pm

My mistake that led to the inclusion of number 3 (which muddied my comment quite a bit) is that I was thinking of death and not just hardships. There is no doubt that many Israelites (especially OT) and many in the church today experience trials and tribulations brought on by the actions of others. This may include God causing a drought or flood in an area. Yet, I must repeat that we cannot know as to whether it is directly from the hand of God or from some other means. Thus, I am not convinced that God would cause the death of His children who are living for Him by a judgment being poured out on others. There are times where we see that God has withdrawn His hand of protection or help (i.e. Achan's sin) and the result led to innocent (for whatever that means) people losing their lives. Also, when we look at the nation of Israel many of the promises given to them were given to the nation as a whole. Thus, when God acted in judgment on the nation even if someone had not directly participated they were guilty because the promise was broken by the nation. Most of the promises given to the church are related to the individual and does not depend on the actions of the whole church. We also know that God said we will not face His wrath (and what His wrath is is some what debatable), yet we do know, as you pointed out, that we will experience discipline for failure to walk in alignment with God. What the discipline is and when it kicks in is up to God. The question that arises is can God take the life of a child of God as part of the discipline process. The answer for me is yes, He removes us from here and takes us to where He is. In so doing He would still be faithful to His promises to His child.

(Note: The above is pretty choppy as I simply typed off the top of my head ... so to speak :-)

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on September 21, 2013 at 2:37pm

I didn't notice any difference. Lol, just kidding.

It makes sense that discipline of believers includes death, especially when you look at someone abusing the use of alcohol developing liver disease and then dying from it, or someone abusing drugs and dying from an overdose, to name a few situations.

If believers die because God is responding with judgment on unbelievers, I suppose God could be disciplining those believers individually as well at the same time. I don't know. I do know that sometimes when something has happened to me personally I have felt conviction and understood it was discipline for sinning and at other times I wasn't sure and still other times when I knew I hadn't sinned in that specific situation and, yet, felt God was disciplining me through it for something in the past. Does God chastise immediately, or can it happen years later?

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 21, 2013 at 2:56pm

To your last question I will give a response that has 4 pieces to it.

 

1) No, God does not always chastise immediately. The how and when is up to Him. God's patience with Israel is a great example of this as He let years pass many times before acting.

2) He may not always directly act. He may very well allow the alcoholic experience the repercussions of over drinking for years all the while showing grace and waiting for the person to desire to turn their life around. The discipline here can simply be that there are consequences for sin in this life.

3) Again, when a person engages in ongoing sin over time God may allow a brief or long period of time to pass before acting, or allow the natural order of life to take its toll. The prodigal son was left alone and returned when life had become unbearable in his current situation ... thus, hitting rock bottom may be the discipline God chooses (as stated earlier God is free to us what whatever form of discipline He wishes at the time of His choosing as long as He does not break His Word in the process) by acting with inaction.

4) What about a person who sinned 30 years ago and never repented and forgot all about it? The goal of discipline is to teach a lesson and to seek to bend us according to God's will so that we will align with Him. The sin itself was paid for on the cross, the discipline for an unknown sin seems unwarranted (LT opinion) as the opportunity to teach has passed and the need to bend may be no longer valid. Thus, in God's omniscience I believe He already knows if it is a one and done sin or not. If it is one and done and there is a form of discipline God wants to employ it would make sense for it to be employed early when the knowledge of the sin is still in one's mind (again this is opinion)

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on September 20, 2013 at 11:19am

I'm just going to post the exact reply I did on another discussion if u don't mind dear brother.

I think it's according to what we define as wrath. Today, I believe, we have gotten too smart for God (or so we think). Whose to say that tsunami's, hurricanes, tornadoes, catastrophes, deaths, etc aren't Him showing His wrath? We don't know those are not but we also don't know that they are either. I know some like to judge  these events & the damage & hurt it causes as God's wrath but it could be just life. I see all hardships of life as God's wrath because in the beginning, these things weren't in the garden. Because of the sin of a man, we now have these things which I think is God's wrath. Maybe, not necessarily, for one people's actions but just His wrath period. For example, I sat thru a tornado. $20,000 worth of damage to my house alone. It wasn't necessarily His wrath on me but man period. But, then again, it could have been for me alone. I hope this makes sense cause I'm responding on a whim & not on prayer. 

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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on September 20, 2013 at 6:13pm

Hi Guys,

Good to hear from you.

But, you gotta' know......the Academy Aword goes to Ms. Tammy for "responding on a whim & not on prayer".

At this point I'm leaning on God's wrath towards Colorado (and to some extent, the USA).

God is not adverse to punishing His chosen people. Please read I Corinthians 10:1-12 (too long to print here).

Psalm 34:19, "Many are the afflictions of the righteous; But the Lord delivers him out of them all". (NASB).

Jesus's words in Matthew 5:45, "....in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." (NASB).

 

And Psalm 71:20,"Thou, who hast shown me(us) many troubles and distresses, wilt revive me(us) again, And wilt bring me(us) up again from the depths of the earth".(NASB).

I interpret this Psalm as saying that God puts us through all kinds of trials, but when we pass from this life, He will bring us home with Him.

 

Sometimes the righteous suffer because of others' disobedience and/or disbelief = Numbers 14:31-35.... The righteous tribes of Joshua and Caleb had to stay out in the wilderness with the other 10 tribes another 40 years, who wouldn't cross over to the promised land.

There were many of God's people in Hitler's Germany (1930's to 1945) who were against his leadership, but had to suffer the consequences. Genesis 12: 3a,"I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse".(NASB).

This was God's eternal warning to the world.

 

Acts 8:1 , "......and on that day a great persecution arose against the church in Jerusalem: and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles". (NASB). Compare with Jesus's words in Acts1:8.

 

To sum up my thoughts = Yes, God punishes His chosen ones.(I Corinthians 10:1-12).

Sometimes His chosen ones get swept up in others' evil and wickedness. ( The promised land, Germany, World War II, etc.)

Sometimes His chosen ones are put through trial for His purposes. (Acts 8:1, persecution all over the world for 1000's of years.).

Yes, sometimes there is suffering in the Kingdom of God. But God will eventually call all His people home.

 

Remember - "The objective of this life, is not the objective". 

 

Grace and Peace.

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on September 21, 2013 at 1:17am

ROFL U a nut

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Permalink Reply by Grazer #E2H on September 21, 2013 at 1:53am

I see that passage as being a warning for the future when he remakes the earth, I'm not even sure it's about punishment but I'll need to read more.

Wasn't Gods "wrath" satisfied on the cross though? Has he still got some to vent then? What about Jesus's teachings of love your enemy, turn the other cheek? Do they not apply to God? Is God asking us to "to do as I say not as I do"? Jesus also says "whoever has seen me has seen the Father"

Sorry Richard, I can't agree with you at all one this one.

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Permalink Reply by Colby on September 21, 2013 at 1:56pm

        An interesting question!  The admonition from God relayed to us by Paul in Galatians 6:7 (which Richard shared in his original post) is sobering, instructive, and blunt.

        Because our original parents Adam and Eve disobeyed God, sin, suffering and death came into the world.  Beyond that and the specific instances recorded in the Bible where God used natural disasters as a judgment against people, I hesitate to correlate subsequent natural disasters as the specific and direct response of God directed at a particular people and their particular set of sins.  As always, I want to be sure that my understanding of God and his ways is firmly anchored in the Scriptures and not speculation on my part.

        At the same time, the Bible states prophetically that certain signs from heaven will point to the second coming of Jesus: "There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains" (Mat24:6-9, NIV).

        What I am certain of is that sin is prevalent and pervasive in this corrupt and fallen world, which desperately needs the saving grace and forgiveness of Jesus Christ.  Also, that sin has consequences for those on the originating and receiving end.  These we can see and confirm with our own eyes.  The evidence is all around us in the form of irreparably damaged relationships, physical and emotional pain and suffering and even death, prejudice and discrimination, injustice, victimization by crime, war, etc.  Sin's consequences are real.  They can and often do extend far and wide--resulting in much pain, suffering, and injustice.  It can last for generations and affect large numbers of people.  Sin, simply stated, is disobeying God.  "All unrighteousness is sin," as John tells us (1Jn5:17, NASB).  "If you love me, you will keep my commandments," said Jesus (Jn14:15, ESV).  Sin, therefore, is the opposite of love and separates us from God.

       Those who are ensnared by sin set themselves up as their own gods.  Many could care less about the effects their sins have on themselves and others, including in particular the potential harmful consequences of their actions, because they are spiritually blind and deluded.  They are the devil's prey (1Pet5:8).

        So, whether or not the massive floods that struck Colorado recently were a direct manifestation of God's wrath (a matter open to speculation), ultimately I believe we can agree on biblical grounds and from our own experience that sin has tragic consequences.

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