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Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Janie,
You are most likely more knowledgeable than I. However, I do not defend or condone sin. I hate the sin that so easily besets us. However, I do know the sinner has hope in Christ. Sin is not reckoned to the person who believes in Christ. Christ is his substitute, his righteousness, his holiness and his salvation. If anything other than faith is necessary unto salvation, then all or us are in a heap of trouble. The question was asked as to whether obedience is necessary unto salvation. I am simply pointing out that the only thing that counts is faith. Faith is what is necessary and nothing else. ALL believers go to heaven and ALL unbelievers go to hell. It is an impossibility that a believer go to hell. If so, Christ has failed and Jesus never fails. My hope is in Jesus and in Him alone and not in myself to be able to do or not to do. Jesus has done it all. There is nothing left for me to do. The work is completely finished.
With that understanding, if anyone were to ask me if something else were necessary, my answer would always be "no, nothing." I understand the concept of growing and maturing. But, at the moment of faith (and maybe even before depending on how one views salvation) I am a finished work. There is nothing left. I receive His Spirit and am sealed with a finished work seal. I am ready for shipment. I can go to heaven then or wait sixty, seventy or even eighty years. I am marked, sealed. I no longer own myself. I belong to Him. He has the right to do with with me whatever He wants. He may allow me to struggle some or might even deliver me completely from certain habits. That is His call.
We have the right to petition Him (even the responsibility) for certain personal needs and for the needs of others. Yet, it all comes down to Him. He is the Master of our souls. He WILL take us to glory. That is our home.
I serve Him because there is that love and gratefulness in me knowing what He has done for me. I moved to Wyoming thinking I would pull back a little but within a few weeks, He had called me back into full-time service for His Kingdom. I might be tired but I will work for my Master until He calls me home. I do not work to earn one thing from Him for I already have it all. I work because I am in love. I work because I am called. I work because of the grace within me. I am a completed work (if you knew me better, you would find much exception to that), yet I continue to work. I live and breathe Jesus.
On the other hand, I do fail and I hate that so much. I kind of believe that you are exactly where I am. I think I just want you to enjoy your salvation. You know whether or not you truly believe in Him. I cannot judge you. But I do think you believe. If so, I think you should quit fighting Him and just relax in Him. Admit where you are. You do not surprise Him. You are not the first nor will you be the last who comes with certain problems. You are who you are. He knows where you are but if He accepts you anyway, just go with it. Don't worry so much about all the crud you have to get rid of. It has nothing to do with your relationship with Him. I don't care where you are or how much sin you have, He will take you right there. You do not have to get one ounce better.
This is not in anyway an endorsement of your or my sin. Yet, I am not going to allow those failures to stop me from enjoying and rejoicing in my Savior. I say, "Enjoy the ride." However, I have done the same things. I have fought Him over and over. I would keep reminding Him how terrible I was. I would tell Him how unworthy I was. I was sure that my salvation was not complete and that I remained in the balance. I was sure that it remained to be seen which way I would go. I cannot tell you how miserable I was. I was a pastor at the time and was guilty of telling people how good they needed to get to be saved from all their sin. It was at that time that my blessed Savior let me know that my salvation had nothing to do with me. The dread of judgment was gone. The dread of failure was gone. The dread of facing Him after continued failures was gone. Peace flooded my soul. The war is over. I didn't win. He did. He brought me to submission. I gave up.
Like Jacob, you are in a wrestling match. You are a good fighter but you will not prevail. Just submit.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Janie, I don't believe Roy means you're speaking evil of these people, but you're focused on these people, rather than on God. You're focused on what they do or think and focus on being backslidden and on works. If you would change your focus and stop calling yourself backslidden and instead focus on Christ and on Him changing you, and focus less on what others say or do (whether or not they're truly right with God is between them and God...many say they believe in God and they're Christian...but if you ask if they accepted Christ, you might get a different answer).
Set your mind on things above and get it off of how professing believers act and off of being backslidden. It's a choice you make whether or not to remain in a backslidden state or to proclaim you're a child of God and pray for Him to change your heart.
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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It is very true that we are saved by the GRACE of God, because nothing we do can possibly EARN salvation. God is Holy (set apart). He cannot abide sin in His presence. But He has commanded that we do certain things before we "receive" His forgiveness.
Consider the fall of Jericho. Before the Israelites got to the city, God told Joshua (Joshua 6) that He had given the city to him (it was a gift from God to Israel). But does that mean that they didn't have to do anything to take possession of the city? Not at all. They had to march around the city once a day for six days. Then on the seventh, they had to march seven times. Then when they had marched seven times, the trumpet would sound and they would shout. Then the walls would fall, and they would attack. What would have happened if they had only marched one time on the seventh day? What would have happened if they had remained silent? The city would not have fallen.
Now consider Moses the second time he was told to bring forth water for Israel in the desert (Num 20). God told him to speak to the rock, but Moses struck the rock and asked the people "Must we bring you water out of this rock?" He took credit for God's work and did not obey what God told him to do. Immediately, God told him that that He would take the Promised Land away from him. Moses would not lead Israel into the Land because he had not obeyed.
What can we learn from this? First, we must read all of scripture and see everything that God has commanded us to do to receive forgiveness of sin. Scripture does not contradict itself, so if we read in one place that we have to do one thing, and in another is says do that plus something else, then both are required. So let us review the things that Scripture commands we do to receive forgiveness from sin.
John 3:16 we are commands us to BELIEVE. Why? "To receive everlasting life."
Luke 13:3 commands that we REPENT. Why? So we won't die.
Matthew 10:32 commands that we CONFESS that Jesus is Lord. Why? So that Jesus will confess us before God.
1 Peter 3:21 commands that we be BAPTIZED. Why? To save us from destruction at the end of the world.
Romans 10:9 commands that we BELIEVE and CONFESS. Why? To be saved.
Mark 16:16 commands that we BELIEVE and be BAPTIZED. Why? To be saved and not damned.
Acts 2:38 commands that we REPENT and be BAPTIZED. Why? To escape punishment for sins.
From these seven verses we see that there are some definite, specific things that we must do in order to receive forgiveness of sins.
Now consider Saul's conversion. Saul was on the way to Damascus to persecute the believers there when he saw Jesus in the light and was struck blind. Scripture says he believed there on the road. But he went into the city and fasted for three days. At the end of those three days Ananias came to him and told him what God said to do. What did he say? Acts 22:16 says, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on his name." Why did he say to wash away his sins if he was saved when he believed on the road three days before? Can we enter Heaven while our sins are still on us? Not at all. So he must have still been in sin, and not yet saved, until he was baptized and his sins were washed away (not by the water, but by the Blood of Christ that is contacted in obedience in the water).
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Hi Seek and Amanda,
Right on..................
Amanda, interesting that you mention Ephesians 2:10.....another of my favorite verses.
Greek word for "handiwork" is poyema, which literally means "masterpiece". A child of God becomes His masterpiece.
Isn't that great?
Grace and Peace ladies.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Thank you for the encouragement, Richard. That I, so broken, might become a masterpiece -- yes, that is incredible.
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Permalink Reply by ribbon on
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Roy,
I think I remember the King David story now.... ... I think this is one story as to why I stay away from the old testament. The king summons a woman so he can "in my eyes" rape her. He is going to get caught so he does what you said and then the soldier stays at war and then the king has him murdered. Its not in my understanding that God loves this king while this king is doing these things. Also I kinda remember a story of a kings child dieing and the man begged for mercy and healing but God refused it and let the child die. Is this the same king? See I guess I do focus on the bad... yes I do. It is so hard to see God as loving.... . I think what I want from Him is not to throw Hs wrath on me and mine. I dot have the love that yall do. So I guess what I am learning is I could go to bars get drunk , cuss , hate whom ever I want .. justify that hate because they deserve it? Im being a punk with that last bit... But really please explain to me how is it that "not sinning" is works? And I know that Jesus is who saves and not works. But isnt obedience a natural thing when salvation comes?
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You have the story pretty close. The part you have wrong is that God doesn't love us during these bad times when our flesh overcomes us as it did in David's case. God will punish for wrong but will never remove His love from us.
It is true that we do try to live holy lives after we become saved. However, some are just not able to overcome their sin. We try and try but still fail. It is my contention that person's relationship has not changed. He still belongs to God and will never be outside of God's love. Scripture teaches us that God does discipline those He loves. This is speaking of His children.
Sometimes people just give up trying to overcome sin and go back to a sinful lifestyle. What happens to that individual? Are they lost and without God? I think that is what you are asking.
I will say "no" they are not lost. But, let us think about this. Sometimes the people get upset that God just doesn't take away those sinful desires. We certainly know that He could. For some He does instantly deliver. Don't you get envious of those who testify how that the desire to do drugs was instantly gone with prayer. Then comes a Word of Faith person along saying that this is the way it should happen to all. You see, ignorance comes into play. Of course not all of us have had these kinds of desires instantly removed. I would say most are still dealing with serious fleshly desires. I hear people saying to others to just believe and they will be delivered. Well, I can tell you that is nonsense. It doesn't happen that way for all. Some are out in the world for the lack of teaching. They are legitimate children of God but living like the devil simply as a result of not understanding the flesh and how it works even in the people of God.
Okay, enough said about that. Let's move on. Do you really want to live like that? Do you like the bar scene so much that you want to continue to get drunk, cuss, etc.? Is that really what you want or have you just resigned yourself to it? Do you down deep want to live a holy life unto Your Lord but concluded that it can never happen to you? If so, I have some very good news for you. His love is remains with you. It has never gone away. My guess is that sometimes people just die because they cannot overcome their sin. It is so bad that God just takes them home. I really don't know how He does these things. What I do know is that if a person is a believer in Him and just loses hope, he is not lost.
If you come back with, "No, I really want to live a lifestyle of hate, drunkenness, deviant lifestyle, etc.," my reaction is going to be that either you do not know the Lord yet or that you are lying and probably think the latter is true.
If a believer thinks he or she can just go out and party, etc.; and not suffer any consequences, that person is mistaken. It is far better to be punished by man than by God. God will discipline those He loves.
As far as works go, when I call obedience works, it is based on the individual that thinks his obedience is what puts him in right standing with God. That then would be works and really would not be obedience at all. When a person works to be pleasing to God thinking this makes God love him more or makes God more proud, etc., those are called works. We can do nothing on our own for God to save us. Christ has done it all.
Some will disagree and they may be correct. I am probably more lenient in my thinking than some. What you have to understand is that is the way I see God. I used to see Him as mean and now I don't. I see Him as kind, loving, supportive, forgiving, merciful, yet stern. I know I have done nothing to deserve His love but I do know that I have it. I guess that does make me relax a little more than some. I know that He loves me and the way I know that is that I read His Word.
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Roy, I suck at the way I try to explain things. It is rare that I even step out my house much less go to a bar. I have a jar of whiskey that I look at but don't drink. I was just giving examples. I guess I used them as examples because before when I mixed and mingled I would drink before I could go. So now since I am not drinking I am stuck . I miss it.... and God knows all doesn't He?
I think God would be showing more favor to thise who obey his comandments more so than thise who dont. You say some people cannot stop... or something like that. Doesn't the bible say that there is always a way out? If the bor agains say that there isn't,... isn't that saying God is a liar? Anyway Thank yi again Roy for helping me.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Janie,
Your question 'But isn't obedience a natural thing when salvation comes?'
That's an excellent question. I'm going to give a demonstration of 'body/soul/spirit' which I hope will be helpful.
We are made up of 3 parts: Body/Soul/Spirit
Our 'Body' is the physical(ness) of who we are. In the 'physical' sense of who we are, we are born into sin separated from our Creator. We are still created in God's image (we have the ability to do good), but because of Adam and Eve sinning we are separated from God, and our natural inclination is to sin. In our physical state, we are dominated by our 5 senses (see, hear, taste, touch and smell). We naturally gravitate to these senses unless we consciously choose to be 'In the Spirit'.....which is accomplished after we are born again thru bible study and prayer.
Our 'Soul' -- This is where our Mind, Will, Emotions, Conscience and personality are expressed. Ephesians 4:24 says '24 Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.'
This new nature is something we need to put on. We know we cannot put on a new nature unless we have been 'born again'. Ephesians 4:17-24 talks about the 'new man'. If believers were already acting new at the time this was written, than why did they need to be told to 'walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind.' ....I believe the answer to that is because there is a learning process. We are disciples... meaning students. We're all learning and growing as we live. We need to be taught, disciple and guided as we grow and mature.
Our 'Spirit'-I understand that our 'Spirit' is dead upon being born into this world. We need to be 'born again' and that's when our Spirits come alive. Our Spirit is perfect and complete upon being born again, (Romans 8:9, 1 Cor 6:17, Gal 4:6) but our 'Body' and 'Soul' is not yet perfect. The will of the flesh is broken (physical) when we study God's Word and pray.. God does it, not us. When we deny our flesh/soul we live in the Spirit. We're all here learning to deny the flesh and live In the Spirit.
So, by how I understand it, 1/3 of a Believer is 100% complete... 2/3 are still being renovated (so to speak).
We all have to learn and submit to The Spirit who is alive in us in order to bring the Body and Soul into full submission. It's the process of Sanctification. Life challenges, successes, frustrations, victories, failings and everything else teaches us to Love God, Love others, and live the life we're called to live. We're all broken vessels under renovation... By The Grace of God go I. :-)
Blessings, Carla
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Janie
Here's a p.s- a final thought,
If any of us has already reached perfection to all that God's calls us to.... Couldn't that possibly lead to pride and that we may forget how much we need the Lord moment to moment? Humility is one of the most important lessons to learn here in this life.
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